hi

Can any one tell me why my hk audio deacon system is going into protect mode when we turn the volume up

Sounds like you are sending too high a signal to the amps. This is used to protect the amps and speakers, being why it is called protect.

I am not pushing it at all there is nothing peaking all levels are good

I think more info, such as what amps are being used, would be very helpful.

the deacon is active thats all I know its been sent back to jhs 4 times now

What inputs are you using, and from what equipment? Could you tell us the level of signal coming from the desk, and whether it is line or mic level.

As above, more info please.

We are using a brand new Allen & Heath Desk. Which we set beside the drum kit and ran the drum mics straight into it.
The levels are not peaking at all on the desk, yet the PA still goes into protect mode.

We changed the Allen & Heath for a Studiomaster 16-4-2 and it still went into protect. JHS has changed all the components and rebooted the software built into the PA modules

I've tried downloading the DEACON manual to find the sensitivity specs, but to no avail. Wretched websites...

The MixWiz (for example) is set so that 0dB on the bargraph = +4dBu. If the speaker's input sensitivity was +4dBu, it would take just a small excursion into the orange LEDs to overdrive the amp (presuming that any speaker input controls are wide open). Furthermore, "out of band" signals (e.g. attempting to pass high level, very low frequency signals) may cause the amplifier some problems.

Do the amps get hot, or is it just a protection system that comes on? Is there audible distortion? Is it the same for all of the boxes (bins and mid-tops)?

Simon

All seems rather odd.

One of the key questions comes from Simon, does the entire system go into protect at the same time? Just one side, just the tops, just the subs, just 1 sub/top?

You don't have to have things peaking on the desk to overdrive the amp as others have said.

If the system has been back to JHS at all (let alone 4 times) then I cannot see there being issues with the components, for a 5th time.

I have to say it sounds like a gain structure issue and you're not realising that perhaps there is 'not enough rig for the gig' ^tm

Rob

You could do with elaborating a bit more.

Does it go straight into protect on both sides without producing sound? Does it work for a while normally then trip? Do all the speakers go off? How loud do you / can you play it? How many boxes are you using? Do you use the subwoofers, if so are they still working? Does it make any strange noises before going off?

On the allen and heath desk we have set the gain and there is only 1 led or 2 comes on both levels on the desk and the EQ is set to run at only half and we have ran the system with enough head room for it not to be going into protect mode but it still is.

Plus the PA goes into protect on satellite mode but goes into protect less often in Fullrange but still hitting protect to much.

When we run the tops by themselves there is no problem with the protect coming on but once we add bins it hits protect.

Could there be a problem with the limiter in the bass bins causing this ?

Another thing is the PA was blasting today when we tried a fun things and was working great but once we introduced a live sound though a full mic up kit keyboards and guitar amp mic it started to slowly start hitting protect mode again that thats with the gain on the desk turned off nearly.

are you the same person as macsmusic?

we have tried a few things to day like putting it in to full-range it works well (the lads at jhs have been brill) we have nothing peaking at all the system gos in to protect just the tops at the same time

Work along side Macsmusic

If JHS say there's nothing wrong then either they're wrong or you're wrong! We really need to acertain which is which. Did they have the whole system back or just bits of it?

Is it possible that there's a driver partially s/c so that it's drawing too much current and tripping on thermal? If they're better with the bins, it could be that the electronic crossover in the bins ( I assume you're connecting them this way) is taking the 'heat' out of the signal to the midhighs, meaning they trip less...so that for example a bad woofer in the top cabs wont get so much signal if run in satellite mode. The only thing is that you say both tops are going out at the same time? Surely they have seperate amps and the protection is done in the tops not the bass! Which Deacon setup do you have..3, 4 or 6 box? Have you checked the limiter settings? Are they set too low? Is it actually going into 'protect'...or just 'limit' which isnt the same thing? Does the sound cut out, pop, crackel, stop, fade or just flash a light? I repeat, please elaborate. Could you log in with just the one username to make it less confusing?

The last time JHS got the insides of the tops back and replaced the software in them and have new power modules in them.

Where using the HK Audio D.E.A.CON with 2 bins each side and 1 top each side. The PA was quiet today but once the live mix went in and started hiting protect mode it started to make a faint hiss sound again which it didnt do with a cd player playing some music before the live mix

do you have any compression on the drums?

no we dont have compression on the drums we dont use any compressors at all in our rack, just a EQ, midiverb, 2 Ashton in-ears and a sennheiser wireless mic operational in the rack. We have done everything JHS have said and the guys there have been great they have helped alot. Just nothin is working out for us.

Does this happen in every venue or is this kit in a fixed loaction? Could be low mains voltage...

Also how much are you pushing it before it thermals. If it's not much, while uncommon with this sort of active gear,especially if it's common to every box, check there are no shorts in the cabling from the amp module and the speaker.

What are the limiter status LEDs on the tops indicating?

The problem has happened at 3 different venues.

We can run if at half but there nothin there when its at half might as well not use the PA when need this thing pumping full. We checked the leads and there all fine and are in good condition.

The status LED's read RED on the tops so its hitting protect.

This surely is the clip limiter, not the protect mode. Protect mode shuts the speaker down usually due to a hardware or thermal fault.

Have you checked the settings of the limiter-compressors on the DSP?

HK are a very consciencious company re - quality control. The last time I ordered an HK part from JHS (non warranty LUCAS 1000 fault) I had a very concerned telephone call a few days later from one of the design engineers in Germany who wanted to know all the details of the repair for quality control purposes and to make sure the fault was not part of a trend. I would imagine that the guys over there would be more than happy to talk to you if you rang them directly!! (?)

Its not the clip limiter because the speaker itself is not producing sound for a couple of seoncds then it comes back on, surely if it was the clip limiter it would only stop a certain frequency playing not the whole lot ?

"macsmusic" and "Thor_Thunder_God"

There is lots of speculation going on here.

To find out exactly what is going on - take a 'scope - put tone, noise or other known test signal into the desk and measure the output of the desk - monitor the levels going into the speakers and record the levels when the speakers go into protect. Compare this measured value with the published sensitivity of the limiting protection circuit.

If you are not capable of doing this simple procedure - then perhaps you could find a nice friendly sound engineer who can do it for you.

If you can't tell what is going on from that information then bring it back here and we can try to help you interpret it. Without concrete information anything else is pure speculation.

Sorry

James

I will try this tommorrow once I go back to work and if I cant get anything sorted I may ring HK themselves.

Like to say thanks to everyone for all there help and JHS because everyone has giving us great information and help and I just hope we can get this problem sorted out.

Thanks

Thor

Well you could've said that from the start! We need a full and accurate description of what is happening if this is to be progressed.

From the manual:

If the LED lights up red continually, there is a defect
in the amp and the system will shut down. In this
case, the equipment should be inspected by an
authorized service technician.

Not much help though as you have already done this...

The term "need this pumping full" or in other words, need this to output the maximum it can concerns me. To do this you are going to be hitting the limiters frequently and the potential for triggering the protection circuit goes up quite significantly.

We all need to remember that one persons loud might be 20dB more than another persons loud. If you have had the components that matter changed and nothing has changed, it either points to a fault further up the line or more likely "not enough rig for the gig" as mentioned before.

The DACON isn't the biggest system in the world and "pumping full" suggests you may like it loud or NEED it loud to compete with the clients demands / the stage noise from backline and drums etc. Headroom is the key, without it you're going to give the system a hard time. What sort of sized venues are you doing. What sort of SPL are you trying to achieve at at given distance.

if its only happened in 3 different venues then maybe its not the equipment to fault?
were these the biggest venues? was the system set up differently?

One thing I noticed from the Deacon user manual is that it recommends turning the input gain to full up and adjusting the gain on the output of the desk before altering the input gain on the Deacon.

I am no expert, but it seems to me that if the limiters are being activated with only 1 or 2 bars on the desk output then the gain structure is being compromised and the noise floor is going to be relatively high.
Would it not be better to set a sensible output level on the desk and adjust the input gain on the speaker so that it is performing optimally (I.e. limiter LED lighting yellow on the peaks not red)?

We have had this system for 4 years and have never had any problems with it but latly it seems to be doing this even at our studio its doing this and the setup or settings have never been changed bar the eq on desk for instrumentd etc