I have a small mobile DJ outfit with 2 crest audio 15" mid range and looking for good bass speakers. I am confused betwen purchasing fold horn or the forward mounted speakers. currently I am using wharfedale lix 15" for my bass and they are quite dissapointing.
Any ideas??
somebody suggested that I purchase naked RCF drivers and then build a cabinet locally in Kenya. Any experiences in doing this????
Mike
Full Version: folded horn versus front mounted
There are other sites/forums such as www.speakerplans.com which will be much more helpful if you do want to build yourself some horns/reflex cabs. FWIW, you can do better than RCF's drivers, as good as they are. Precision Devices are worth looking at instead - more expensive, but better. Building speakers isn't easy though, and you can't just stick a good driver in a box and expect a good sound.
Your best bet RE different sub types is to just have a listen to them. There are quite a few different kinds of designs, sometimes they sound very similar, sometimes they sound very different.
Your best bet RE different sub types is to just have a listen to them. There are quite a few different kinds of designs, sometimes they sound very similar, sometimes they sound very different.
Also if you go for the folded horn approach you will almost certainly have to introduce some delay into the tops to make them wait for the sound to travel all the way through the folded horn to get everything to line up nicely
+1 on the PD drivers, we have a few reflex subs loaded with PD 1850 drivers and are quite happy with the performance, but as Killyp said a lot of the speakers sound comes from the design of the box not just the driver
+1 on the PD drivers, we have a few reflex subs loaded with PD 1850 drivers and are quite happy with the performance, but as Killyp said a lot of the speakers sound comes from the design of the box not just the driver
Also what they're made out of! I've got some speakers made of chipboard which sound frankly shocking (although that may be because they're loaded with Eminence! 
). Birch is the best wood to use, but can be very expensive.
). Birch is the best wood to use, but can be very expensive.
when making recommendations, bear in mind hes based in Kenya
I guess then the folded horn is not the best choice. I am looking at speakers for a mobile outfir to take care of both indoor and outdoor gigs of upto 1000 people. Actually do I really need to purchase bass speakers or should I rather buy something like the markie SA1532z
QUOTE (makarunga @ 18 Jun 2009, 10:09 AM) 
I guess then the folded horn is not the best choice. I am looking at speakers for a mobile outfir to take care of both indoor and outdoor gigs of upto 1000 people. Actually do I really need to purchase bass speakers or should I rather buy something like the markie SA1532z
The Mackie is a great all in one box and they do work very well without subs. I have also heard them used with subs again to good effect. My problem with them is they are quite large and heavy and are only just one man portable. Now this may not be a problem for you but it is something to think about.
Personally I would take the modular approach and get separate subs and tops that way for a small gig you can just take the tops and for larger gigs you can take the full system.
I think both options might struggle to provide for 1000. Having said that if it is like a mobile DJ operation in the UK then there might be 1000 people there but only maybe 200 on the dance floor so it might be ok
QUOTE
FWIW, you can do better than RCF's drivers,
Once again, you've made my day. WHY?
What's wrong with them.
Some of the largest loudspeaker manufacturers in the world (RCF themselves being one of them) have used and continue to use RCF drivers in their boxes. From all ranges. From wallet friendly to the top of the range tour grade systems. the W8S, the legendary Hybrid sub from the world renowned W8 system is a good example amongst others. I'm sure if Martin could have done better than RCF drivers, they would have done. Retailing at nearly £3000 per box, a driver that was a bit more expensive would have been the least of peoples worries.
Of course, that's not to say they're the ideal manufacturer for your application, and not to say that PD don't make good drivers. There are of course some PD drivers that are better than some RCF drivers. But then again, there are some Fords that are better than Some BMW's.
Just on a further note to Rob's post - driver choice is also heavily influenced by box type, different drivers work better/worse in different boxes.
Sound on Sound's sister publication performing musician has had an article running for the past couple of months on exactly this subject - building your own system, and rog mogales, the designer of many plans on speakerplans has plenty to say on the subject.
Of the people of whom I have rented and used rigs (from small to medium-scale), the ones I've spoken to about driver choice have always said the RCF drivers aren't the best available, although still a safe choice. Most seem to choose Precision Devices, B&C and Beyma. RCF drivers always seem to be used in branded boxes, and I am not convinced that just because a box has Martin, Turbo or Nexo written on the front means it is naturally a better designed/researched speaker.
QUOTE (Killyp @ 19 Jun 2009, 10:49 PM)
....I am not convinced that just because a box has Martin, Turbo or Nexo written on the front means it is naturally a better designed/researched speaker.
Of course not. I mean - what do these guys actually know about designing loudspeakers? Surely, anybody can make hornloaded boxes - the maths isn't difficult and 35 years of Martin expertise doesn't count for much... Turbo's bass and mid loading techniques could have been dreamed up by any old cabinet builder, and their polyhorn is just a bit of silicone. Nexo haven't really done much for the audio world except the odd speaker processor with feedback systems, and a few compact line array boxes utilising conicoid curve reflectors when the rest of the world were still making 2x15" jobbies...
Amateurs, the lot of them ;-)
As Simon quite rightly says.
These are manufacturers that have been around for years and years. Boxes that they manufactured 10, 15 20, 25 years ago are still in use by LARGE scale companies around the world, and still hold their own against stuff that was designed last year. They've sold thousand after thousand after thousand of them and will continue to do so. My guess is that despite what you think, they've probably got something right over the years.
And what exactly IS a better box that doesn't have these brand names on it? What DESIGNS are they using. My guess is that it's something based on a design from one of these manufacturers.
Let's look at W8, as it's the system I used as an example, and a system I owned in significant quantity until a few years ago. The cabinet would have been designed loosely to fit truck spacings, and worked upon for practicality, several choices of driver would have been looked at, and if an off the shelf driver would have been the best choice, that would have gone in the box, if not, a range of companies would make a driver to a spec and the manufacturer would make a box suitable for it that fit in all the criteria. The driver chosen would be the best all rounder. In this case, it WASN'T A PD, B&C or a BEYMA.
Contrary to somewhat unpopular belief, they didn't just throw some birch ply together, bung 1 18 and 1 15 inch driver that they could get at a reasonable rate in them and call it a W8S.
I suppose those ATC 12's are rubbish aswell. And lets not mention those PHL 6.5's that have appeared in nearly every box worth a . since the 80's.
I don't like Nexo, but they're a key player in the industry and I can't argue with that and alot of the design concepts. And most do sound better than a pair of chipboard built eminence loaded boxes...... odd really.
These are manufacturers that have been around for years and years. Boxes that they manufactured 10, 15 20, 25 years ago are still in use by LARGE scale companies around the world, and still hold their own against stuff that was designed last year. They've sold thousand after thousand after thousand of them and will continue to do so. My guess is that despite what you think, they've probably got something right over the years.
And what exactly IS a better box that doesn't have these brand names on it? What DESIGNS are they using. My guess is that it's something based on a design from one of these manufacturers.
Let's look at W8, as it's the system I used as an example, and a system I owned in significant quantity until a few years ago. The cabinet would have been designed loosely to fit truck spacings, and worked upon for practicality, several choices of driver would have been looked at, and if an off the shelf driver would have been the best choice, that would have gone in the box, if not, a range of companies would make a driver to a spec and the manufacturer would make a box suitable for it that fit in all the criteria. The driver chosen would be the best all rounder. In this case, it WASN'T A PD, B&C or a BEYMA.
Contrary to somewhat unpopular belief, they didn't just throw some birch ply together, bung 1 18 and 1 15 inch driver that they could get at a reasonable rate in them and call it a W8S.
I suppose those ATC 12's are rubbish aswell. And lets not mention those PHL 6.5's that have appeared in nearly every box worth a . since the 80's.
I don't like Nexo, but they're a key player in the industry and I can't argue with that and alot of the design concepts. And most do sound better than a pair of chipboard built eminence loaded boxes...... odd really.
having worked for and with german audio enginering www.gae.de, they use RCF drivers, as well as B&C, I have found some RCF drivers to be unbelivable for the money, get your ears round a GAE BR218 powered from a MC2 audio E45, and you will not belive the how clear and loud and how low the box goes, its loaded with with their new 18P300, I have never heard bass quite like it, just my 2 pence
Well I'm willing to put my hands up and admit defeat. I've always believed RCF's drivers aren't consistently on the same level as many other manufacturers, but maybe I'm wrong!
What you need to remember is that there is a whole range of drivers out there. Of course, alot of RCF drivers will be custom made for boxes. There are then off the shelf models, the trouble with the latter is they need to go in a box that is suited to it. There are box designs around for such as PD drivers. the 186 and 1850 horns for example. Designed for use with off the shelf drivers. So it's a compromise unless you design a box with a particular driver in mind. Also remember that out of the off the shelf models there will be better drivers and more budget friendly ones. The same applies with most manufacturers, take an Eminence Alpha 15 against a Sigma Pro 15. The latter being a more than useable driver for not alot of money, the former being cheap and cheerful but doing the job in some budget applications. The kilomax drivers don't count here as they are almost as useless in this industry as the Alesis MEQ230. But not quite.
ppl might of gone a bit off topic and started a what speaker driver make arguement.
for what you need the folded horn isnt right. these are just to heavy. your bass isnt to good because its a single 15". I only use 15" for bass when its dual. you tend to get a 'tighter' punch from a 15" over a 18". the 18" will give you that deeper rumble.
I do lil systems for back room raves, as I call them. mobile dj type parties but needs to be loud as its rave. lightness and loud is our key. avoides the suprised by stairs attack. we have a rack of crown xti's and jbls with neodymium magnets, loads of old peavey hi sys stuff and a few qsc's. I work with a logic system on my main event and this has B&C drivers init.
there is lots of good makes out there but I find after working with most that they all die by similar faults.
remember you dont want to spend too much as it's about what you can make back. also slightly cheaper stuff is cheaper to fix. 1 failure in our logic system can take out the full nights profits.
I recomend getting a drive rack so you can tune your system. it will make a massive difference. you will learn loads from it.
for what you need the folded horn isnt right. these are just to heavy. your bass isnt to good because its a single 15". I only use 15" for bass when its dual. you tend to get a 'tighter' punch from a 15" over a 18". the 18" will give you that deeper rumble.
I do lil systems for back room raves, as I call them. mobile dj type parties but needs to be loud as its rave. lightness and loud is our key. avoides the suprised by stairs attack. we have a rack of crown xti's and jbls with neodymium magnets, loads of old peavey hi sys stuff and a few qsc's. I work with a logic system on my main event and this has B&C drivers init.
there is lots of good makes out there but I find after working with most that they all die by similar faults.
remember you dont want to spend too much as it's about what you can make back. also slightly cheaper stuff is cheaper to fix. 1 failure in our logic system can take out the full nights profits.
I recomend getting a drive rack so you can tune your system. it will make a massive difference. you will learn loads from it.
to the OP
I have worked in various clubs in my time as a DJ although I only do one disco every 6 months thank God.....I have heard just about everything going, from full range cabnets, 2x12" tandom tuned band pass boxes, 1x15" reflex boxes, 2x15" reflex boxes, 1x 18", 2x18" reflex bins, 1x15" Y bins, 1x15" W bins, 1x15 folded horns, 1x18 folded horns, and finally 1x21" folded horns.
Every single bin sounded different but it would be hard to explain over a forum why due to the complex physics involved.
In my experience - A 1x15" reflex box will produce a nice tight flat bass or a 1 note peak depending on the tuning of the port. Take the car stereo freeks - of which I used to be......With the right tuning you can get a reflex box to produce 150dB but only at a certain frequency. The same 15" can produce a flatter extension down to 50Hz but with an SPL of 123dB.
A 1x18" reflex can do 125db but will go deeper as a general rule
A 1x15" Y bin can do 130dB but wont go below 70Hz - put 4 of them together and you start to get some real results - The LF extension goes down and the SPL goes up to 140db ish.
A 1x18 folded horn by itself sounds great, but lacks a bit of LF extension - again put 4 together and you get results.
A 1x21 folded horn goes realy deep and with the right horn design can reach extreme SPL
The difference between a 2x18" relfex box and a 1x18" folded horn is quite surprising - The 2x18 will go deeper but has a max SPL of 130, being 18 makes the thud quite slow and some say wooley. The 1x 18" horn will dig you right hard in the chest with a higher SPL off 136 but the thud is very snappy due to the much faster impulse responce. Put 4 1x18 folded horns and you can get some serious results - depth and SPL.
All of the above is written from experience using around 800W drivers - I have designed and built hundreds of speakers since 1987. I do not claim to be an expert and am very much still learning.
I have worked in various clubs in my time as a DJ although I only do one disco every 6 months thank God.....I have heard just about everything going, from full range cabnets, 2x12" tandom tuned band pass boxes, 1x15" reflex boxes, 2x15" reflex boxes, 1x 18", 2x18" reflex bins, 1x15" Y bins, 1x15" W bins, 1x15 folded horns, 1x18 folded horns, and finally 1x21" folded horns.
Every single bin sounded different but it would be hard to explain over a forum why due to the complex physics involved.
In my experience - A 1x15" reflex box will produce a nice tight flat bass or a 1 note peak depending on the tuning of the port. Take the car stereo freeks - of which I used to be......With the right tuning you can get a reflex box to produce 150dB but only at a certain frequency. The same 15" can produce a flatter extension down to 50Hz but with an SPL of 123dB.
A 1x18" reflex can do 125db but will go deeper as a general rule
A 1x15" Y bin can do 130dB but wont go below 70Hz - put 4 of them together and you start to get some real results - The LF extension goes down and the SPL goes up to 140db ish.
A 1x18 folded horn by itself sounds great, but lacks a bit of LF extension - again put 4 together and you get results.
A 1x21 folded horn goes realy deep and with the right horn design can reach extreme SPL
The difference between a 2x18" relfex box and a 1x18" folded horn is quite surprising - The 2x18 will go deeper but has a max SPL of 130, being 18 makes the thud quite slow and some say wooley. The 1x 18" horn will dig you right hard in the chest with a higher SPL off 136 but the thud is very snappy due to the much faster impulse responce. Put 4 1x18 folded horns and you can get some serious results - depth and SPL.
All of the above is written from experience using around 800W drivers - I have designed and built hundreds of speakers since 1987. I do not claim to be an expert and am very much still learning.
QUOTE
Also if you go for the folded horn approach you will almost certainly have to introduce some delay into the tops to make them wait for the sound to travel all the way through the folded horn to get everything to line up nicely.
I only just spotted this. I tried to calculate the delay, but it seemed so small as to not be worth considering, when moving the top boxes could easily be more 'distance' than the extra travel in a folded horn, or have I lost something here?
Hmmm.. you use quite precise figures on your post, but of course, we don't really know what boxes these are, and what sort of venues they are used in. Nor do we know what mid top boxes these are paired with for what program material.
You are quite right in saying that different types of box give off different sounds though.
Paul, the crossover points between 2 "misaligned" drivers is where the problem occurs. On axis the problem may not seem to much to worry about but as we step off axis (in the direction of the misalignment so usually on the vertical axis) this shifts significantly. There are going to be axis points where a particular frequency within the crossover "area" are 180degrees shifted phase, and a point where they are coupling as they are in phase, and all points inbetween. We tend to get lobing effects at certain frequencies because of this.
Lets look at a typical passive box on stick approach. On axis, the 2 drivers are misaligned but it's not a big issue, but look 45 degrees (example figure) off axis vertically in the downward position. Things line up and couple. We get a massive lobing at a given frequency, say 1.6kHz which is likely within the crossovers slope. This can potentially be 6dB louder of course.
It also means that in a conference type event, any wandering lapel mics infront of the speakers are going to cause even more hassle when they stand at that magical angle.
Flying yokes help as you can turn the box upside down and have that lobe going off into the sky (of course this may cause further problems in other places but its a matter of trial and error).
Time alignment goes SOME way to minimising this. Of course it only works for the given axis, if you have a problematic area whereby lots of people stand there and you are getting peaks or troughs, altering the tim alignment of components can go some way to helping this.
You are quite right in saying that different types of box give off different sounds though.
Paul, the crossover points between 2 "misaligned" drivers is where the problem occurs. On axis the problem may not seem to much to worry about but as we step off axis (in the direction of the misalignment so usually on the vertical axis) this shifts significantly. There are going to be axis points where a particular frequency within the crossover "area" are 180degrees shifted phase, and a point where they are coupling as they are in phase, and all points inbetween. We tend to get lobing effects at certain frequencies because of this.
Lets look at a typical passive box on stick approach. On axis, the 2 drivers are misaligned but it's not a big issue, but look 45 degrees (example figure) off axis vertically in the downward position. Things line up and couple. We get a massive lobing at a given frequency, say 1.6kHz which is likely within the crossovers slope. This can potentially be 6dB louder of course.
It also means that in a conference type event, any wandering lapel mics infront of the speakers are going to cause even more hassle when they stand at that magical angle.
Flying yokes help as you can turn the box upside down and have that lobe going off into the sky (of course this may cause further problems in other places but its a matter of trial and error).
Time alignment goes SOME way to minimising this. Of course it only works for the given axis, if you have a problematic area whereby lots of people stand there and you are getting peaks or troughs, altering the tim alignment of components can go some way to helping this.
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