Stageline Line Array

I've not seen this product before, but it was in the CPC flyer today, and it's available on a few internet sites. Probably too new for anyone to have had a chance to hear them, but interesting anyway.


Some more info here

I'm always interested to hear these products. Despite the fact it isn't a line array and never will be.

max SPL 121db

It looks like this from Citronic.

Josh

Who would buy a Citronic line array?!

The same people who would buy a Stage Line one.

That post reminds me of one made about a year ago by someone who had seen it on the web and wanted to get peoples opinions on it.

I see no problem with any specific brand of unit. No-one can make a judgement about it until someone hears it.

Josh

I can, have, and will time and time again. It's not a line array, nor will it ever be one. That's all.

Definition of 'line array' from the Wiki.

Another thing I have noticed is this.

"Frequency response, upper limit:25000Hz "

Can we even hear 25khz?

25kHz is out of most peoples hearing range, except the ones who believe in uni directional gold cable and expensive precision manufactured rock placement in your living room to hear the upper most detail that usually only a dog can hear....... I'll leave it at that

I don't think there's any meaningful comparison with the TOA box (which incidentally is much cheaper!) - one's powered, one's unpowered, different numbers of drivers, different size of drivers, different mounting/flying methods - in fact the only similarities I can see is that both are boxes with the label "line array" and both are at the budget end of the market

Let's keep this thread on-topic...

Waiting for chris from CPC to appear

*sits waiting for Mr CPC himself, Chris.* more information please, and Mr Beech, can you please educate me as to why it is not a line array?

There's a topic on it fairly recently where I went off on one about it all, I'll try and find it but also have a look yourself incase I can't find it.

It's based around how line arrays work, and how this simply cannot work in that way.

ok, I shall do, should be quite an interesting read. cheers Rob.

RE sound above 20 kHz - you can't hear it, but nonetheless it does make a difference. The main reason is that if a speaker's upper limit is 25 kHz, it'll still show 'perfect piston' behavior at 20 kHz.

Or at the very least, BETTER behaviour than one that only responds to 20kHz.

We could go on to ask the question, how linear is the coverage likely to be at 20kHz or indeed somewhat lower in a system concept and design that is designed for larger rooms?

Er.... hi guys (ducks to hide from flying items) I did wonder how long this thread would take to appear a few weeks back when I compiled the brochure

This products is along the lines of other budget items on the market. Most of the guys who use this product will want the "appearence" of a line array without understanding the technology of linear array systems or actually have the real demand for a line array. I have listed this item as a result of requests from a number of customers who may well operate within the mobile DJ sector of the market. As for the spec's... I can only quote the manufacturer's spec

I see the blurb advises using several of these in a cluster for larger PA applications:

How would you describe that, I wonder?

Pete

I think the "cluster" may well refer to the ability to use up to four systems as one hang (four subs at the top with the mid/hi packs underneath).

4 Subs and 16 MidHi's. Now THAT, might at least have a go at acting as a line array. I'm looking forward to the comments about the rigging hardware.

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Ha!

The trouble is, Rob, that the term "Line Array" is just a marketing hype term used by manufacturers to persuade people to buy loudspeakers. It has no proper technical definition (and I hope people here have more sense than to take articles on Wikipedia as reliably representative of objective fact). Describing a speaker system as a "Line Array" means whatever the manufacturer wants it to mean.

A line array is just a bunch of speakers assembled into a line.

It usually has nothing to do with the term "Line Source" which is defined in any good acoustics textbook.

Some of the better "Line Arrays" from major manufacturers behave approximately as Line Sources, over some parts of their operating range. To do so effectively over the range of wavelengths which we use to reproduce music, the array needs to be at least twenty feet long, and preferably more than thirty feet long.

Any "line array" consisting of a few cheap boxes suspended or stacked one above the other can never behave as a line source and willl not provide any of the associated benefits. In most applications, its performance will be inferior to a splayed system of similar size and containing equivalent drive units.

This Line Array Lunacy has been going on for ten years now, it must be time for a Next Big Thing to come along and displace it....

Very true, so to clarify, it's not a Line Array in the way that people THINK it might be a line array.

As I think someone mentioned, people who are going to buy this probably won't understand the basics of array theory let alone the infinitely more complicated stuff that alot of us here HAVE to work with and as such, they often won't have the knowledge to use the system in any way that will benefit them more than a conventional system. However, the marketing and the hype will always win in this scenario. DJ Dave and his new line array is still going to sound as pathetic as he did with his HiSys2's.

Its going to look great in the Dog and ferret with jivemaster budget spinning the sounds of max bygraves so it certainly does have a place in the market, fair play to stage line for a marketing coup (or should that be toup?)

He would sound about the same using F1, D&B or Meyer!

The problem is not Dave the DJ using stupid cheap gear that tries to look the part, it is that all to often the venues board of directors cannot see the difference between stuff aimed at Dave and the real thing (except that the real thing is an order of magnitude or two more expensive).
When the MD knows what PA costs because he brought his son a pile of this stuff for his 15th birthday, it suddenly becomes a very hard sell to get the right tools to do a good job.

BTDT.

Regards, Dan.

I'm more worried about mobile discos tring to suspend two 51kg systems from a bit of goalpost thinwall truss, or even garden fence chain wrapped around the metal bars in the suspended ceiling ;-)

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Yes indeed. The only positive point is that he can impress similarly non-educated soundies - or customers - by telling them that he has a nice new Line Array instead of an old-fashioned out of date non-line-array speaker system. If that gives him a competitive advantage then it might be helpful. Otherwise, it's just helping to perpetuate technical ignorance. But hey, now that MP3's and overpopulated DAB streams are becoming most people's point of reference for audio quality, maybe we are wrong to care?

im not quite sure what place this sort of system has in the marketplace?

I do alot of DJ systems
most applications get the usual boxes stacked up style of sound system for the obvious reasons

if we ever needed to step up to a Line Array system (flown) then would this be upto the job? The venue would have to be rather large for stacked boxes to not be used, in these circumstances, I cant see this system being upto the job in hand!

So a line array is the new disco 2x12 plus piezo...

I think I'll copyright the name "DeeJay-Array" and all variations. Somebody is bound to want to buy it from me soon!

Bob

I must admit I would not expect too much

but I would at least listen to them and pick one up
before attacking mobile dj's and giving the cabs a bad rap

everyone has a good idea on what they will be like
and if people expect the earth then they are ignorant

so if you like them buy them if not stop reading the specs and get a girlfriend

CB

I wouldnt expect much from these cheaply put together systems but would be pretty awesome to say you had a "line array" in your living room as your hifi system!! lol?!?!

load of tat, people will buy it and hang off thigs that they shouldnt and ill problerly end up in close proxsimtry to one of these and when I do ill use it as a door stop,
saying that I was working brixton adcadmey last saturday and I had a know itall group of ravers telling me that the ev xline system that was being used was not as good as his mates peavey set up, so I have all ready met one customer for the above talked about liner array

PLASA 07 was quite laughable.. a lot of stands had these tops that had the "appearance" of a line array, but mounted on a stick?! not to mention they only had two sections! I didnt see so many in 08..

I think some of this thread is aimed at hating unprofessional DJ's.

The system has been used in anger...
http://www.lsionline.co.uk/news/?UQVP8B

I also spotted it doing the little unsigned stage at the Connect festival this summer (same promoters as T in the Park).

It has been angry at least twice then!

am I going blind or can I just not see the woods for the trees but what the heck are you refering to on that link?

er.... UM the monacor.dk site - is IMG

guess I should have just registered on the site

I'd love to say that I'm surprised how many people attacked this system before even hearing a peep (or hum) out of it, but I'm not I'm afraid. Shame really.
I can say that I've actually had the PLEASURE of mixing a small scale gig on this system (the very one mentioned that was at connect festival) and whilst it wasn't mind blowing, it faired up well. I had no problems with clarity, no problems with lacking lowend or top end and was generally pleased with the sound from a practically unknown box. IMG are not proclaiming this to be the next big thing in loudspeaker design, but give the guys a chance before you bash them.
So what if it's not a true line array - who cares. They are just trying to sell speakers and stay afloat in an overcrowded market, but that's not going to be made easier for them if people dismiss their products before even trying them.
The L'ray is a decent, low priced and extremely useable loudspeaker system. What's wrong with that?

Well I certainly haven't commented on clarity or lack of low end or top end becasue I haven't heard it. My comment were simply based on the fact it's not a line array.

They're not claiming it to be the next big thing in loudspeaker design, they're claiming it's a line array. It's neither (comments by Stan read and agreed) but the are claiming this is a "line array" that does what a line array should do, not just a group of boxes in a line.

Business is business and if they can keep afloat then fair play to them.

It's still not a line array though.

I take false advertising quite seriously. slightly off topic, I recently bought an in-car compass to help me around back roads. turns out it doesnt point north, and that its a "fashion accessory" for the car, and is discretely marked so on the back of the box. in my opinion though, it should be clearly marked so on the front. same should go for a line array. if they want to sell "line arrays", they should damn well make them!

I suspect that the misuse of the phrase line array is now so widespread that the technical origin of the word is gone for good. As far as I can see any speaker system that has the drivers in more than one plane can't be a line array, but I guess they mean cabinets stacked in an array, in a line - so it's a line array of cabinets, not drivers. This I would guess is quite accurate, but simply not what we understand as a traditional line array. Come to think of it, I've just realised my venue could advertise we have a line array system.

We have a pair of these still hanging (mainly because the asbestos people won't let me remove the hanging cables)

Shure Vocalmaster Columns line arrays

You sure it's not a line array?


Any thoughts on how a solution like this would fare up against some of the one-box solutions around the same price on the market? What would be the alternatives at that price?

Here Here. I haven't heard it either, however I hadn't even heard about it before this thread! I don't intend to buy one myself, but I wonder how many people have read this thread and are now considering it as an option.

What do they say about any publicity being good publicity?

Chris (CPC), I bet you're delighted!

For anyone who is consiering it, please follow the usual advice... listen to it, compare to other systems, and consider all issues eg. hanging, weight etc. If you conclude that this product best fits your needs for the price, go for it! And good luck!

Ben.

Thankyou for being sensible! I hear so many people referring to systems and smugly saying "well it isn't a true line array". We all know that sound and speaker design has its roots in physics, but frankly I'm a sound engineer, not a physicist. As such my job is to make speakers sound good, not to design them, worry about how they were designed or think about what they were designed to be. Why should I care whether the system I have in front of me, assuming I have enough for the venue, it's in phase, reasonably balanced and working properly, is or isn't a 'true' line array? It makes sod all difference to me as long as it works! Understanding musicality is far more important to me than worrying or even thinking about what kind of speakers I'm running.

Paul

I'd strongly disagree here. an engineer's knowledge should be built from the ground up, not the top down. physics and electronics are the two cornerstones here, and if you're ignorant of those cornerstones, it's all going to fall down one day.

It hasn't all fallen down in the last 1000 or so concerts, so I think I should be OK. And it isn't ignorance; it's knowing my job. You'd be amazed at how many people can talk all day about speaker design yet can't spot an out of phase driver. Why is it I so often get on systems set up by supposedly technically competent people and have to sort out so many basic errors? Why did I spot, by ear, 4 mid/high modules that were out of phase on a Martin line array that we had on demo? (Yup, the company themselves sent us a system with a cable that was wired wrong and I had to explain to their systems guy how to sort it, after explaining how to spot an out of phase driver by ear). Why can I spot one out of phase top flown in an array of 12 (anyone who's gigged in The Azores will be familiar with this). It isn't technical knowledge that allows me to do that; it's knowing what I'm listening to yet listening is something so few deeply technical people seem to be able to do.

The two single most important things for a sound engineer are using your ears and understanding music. I'm not by any means saying technical knowledge doesn't have its place, and as someone who regularly does systems I do need a reasonable degree of technical knowledge, so I understand both sides of it. Still, no-one can convince me that technical knowledge of physics or electronics will get you a better sound than a natural ability to use your ears and understand what you're actually mixing, I.e. music, which is why I dedicate more time to learning and developing the latter instead of learning physics that isn't really going to help me when I'm in Russia rebuilding a system. I need to know wiring and how systems go together for that, not how to design speakers. People pay me to get good sounds after all, not to talk crap all day about how and why a system is or isn't a 'true line array'.

This is, of course, my own opinion, and I respect yours even if we disagree.

Paul

The above is an almost perfect description of what I would term a Sound OPERATOR. You use your ears and musical ability to operate the sound equipment for a band or performer.

An ENGINEER requires knowledge of engineering - Maths & Physics.

Most enginners are system techs and I'd hate to arrive at a gig and find the guy with the rig is a musical genius with fabulous operating skills when I want him to be an engineer and engineer his system for me to operate.

Just my tuppence!

I consider maths to be a prerequisite for physics and electronics.

Paul, I do agree with you on that point. an engineer should be able to listen out for technical anomalies, in your case these guys did not. however like said above, I think that the difference between a technician and engineer is the understanding of how his tools work. not necessarily to a level where you could design a whole system from desks to boxes, but understand to a level where you can intelligently diagnose problems, and apply knowledge to finding solutions.