Hi, been reading these threads as I am thinking of moving from playing backing tracks via minidisk player to using laptop via MP3 backing tracks on board. I have winamp software which I use to play the tracks. I am also having a problem connecting laptop to my powered mixing desk/PA. I have read the threads here and as far as I can gather I have 3 optional connections:

1: to get an external sound card with RCA/Phono outputs/inputs and with Balanced Outputs (either TRS or XLR).. With this option I connect my computer to the sound card and then connect the ESC to my powered mixer

2. to get DI Boxes and with this option connect computer to the DI boxes (do I need 2?) and connect the boxes to my powered mixer.

Another 3rd option I have picked up from the thread is to simply use a cable eg 3.5mm stereo jack to 2 RCA Cables (input to line level inputs of Powered Mixer)

Which one do I choose? Does anyone know which option is best? Or can give me any more help in this area. Also which output on laptop I should use?:

The headphone or Speaker Connection
The microphone connector
or the S-Video TV out Connector and to this I can connect a TV/Digital Audio adapter cable which has 3 inputs 1) S/PDIF digital audio connector, the other two are video input connectors (I have assumed this is not applicable for connecting a laptop?)


Thanks JOY

Let's go backwards with the response...

Digital out can be used if your desk has digital in.

Straight out of the laptop headphone or speaker output. Depending upon the laptop you may get earth interference when running from mains and questionable audio quality.

DI box. You will need 2 if you want stereo. You still may get interference as above.

External sound 'card'. Best option if you get a decent one as you describe with balanced connections.

HTH.

Drew.

External sound card is your best option, better sound quality by far, the sound cards built in to laptops aren't great, more functional than anything.

You can pick them up fairly cheap, you don't need all the options on them, as long as it has a good output. There are plenty of places on the internet you can pick them up.

Avoid the headphone socket, a PA will pick up interference really well, then amplify it. this isn't good.

So definitely go USB sound card.

Tom

From experience, even with an external sound card (I have the Edirol UA25) there is still some kind of earth loop. I had to use a pair of isolating transformers to achieve clean sound.

This is possibly due to my laptop - Toshiba sat pro and you may not have such problems.

good luck



Edit to remove unwise experimentation.

How about getting a desk with A USB port on it?

I simply use a GROUND LOOP ISOLATOR like this between the headphone out of the laptop and the stereo input of the mixer.

David

What he said. They work GREAT, also you can try this out if you have a two D/I's laying around that have "GND Lift", to my understanding this works similarly in eliminating the ground noise which usually seems to be generated from the power supply and all of the laptop components being in such close quarters, Best of luck!

~Ryan

Something like this?

I have just gone over to what you mention in your OP, I was advised by Bobbsy to get one.
I did, and the difference between this and the headphone socket is alot.

For £44, you can't go wrong short of an external sound card.

Er, John....that IS an external sound card!

Seriously, there are two separate issues with laptop audio that people sometimes confuse.

First off, the sound cards built into laptops are invariably rubbish. The interior of a computer is an electrically noisy space and sound cards in a laptop are very much an afterthought, designed to cost as little money and use as little circuit board space as possible. As John says, even an inexpensive external card like the one he links to will make a huge difference in performance. Spending a bit more on an external card with balanced inputs and outputs is better still.

The second issue that crops up frequently is earthing problems when you connect your laptop to a professional mixer. The design of the mains adaptors on many laptops means they're very prone to problems with hum caused by an earth loop. This issue can happen either with the internal card OR with an external card (since a USB external card is powered from the computer and electrically connected to it). Like most hum problems this can usually be cured by something like an isolating transformer or DI box. Or, if your mixer can handle it, an optical connection completely eliminates the problem. It's worth saying that not every laptop suffers from this issue--my old IBM thinkpad was clean as a whistle.

Bob

If you can live with a mono summed output ARTcessories have an interesting little passive unit... AV Direct

Here is a brilliant passive ( So no phantom needed ) compact and cheap box. Stereo, 20db pad and of course earth lift
Ckick Here!
I have 2 of these used regularly for corporate events with no problems.

Good Luck

Neil

in my experience, its USUALLY the laptops that have an earth on the PSU that cause problems, this may or may not be solved by an external card or DIs,
a way that has worked every time so far for me is to use an el-cheepo PSU from Maplin or similar thats double insulated, just a figure 8 type connector.

Happy to say my little IBM thinkpad is also lovely and quiet, to the extent I've used its onboard output to drive a large sound rig for background music and had no hiss, fizz or hum.

Has anyone tried one of these from CPC?

If the sound quality is reasonable they look to be quite promising. What about drivers, do they have ASIO drivers or is ASIO4ALL required?

Hi Joy

Have you considered any of the Archos range of mp3 players?
I arrange my drumtrax and bass lines on computer and then transfer them to the Archos as either a wav. or mp3 file. I prefer the wav.
The storage is huge and you have a single play option.
I connect my Archos 504 to my mixer via the analouge stereo in chanel, it's reliable and sounds excellent with no noise issues. Might be worth a look.

Cheers.............Brian.

I'd like to throw another spanner in the works and ask the question...... WHY?

I'm not saying there isn't a problem, I'd just like to know what the current problem with minidisk is that is making / has made you change to relying on computers?


Rob

capacity is key. computers do a lot, so are always handy to have around I guess. I'll actually be buying a 6u cradle and 1u tray soon to rehouse an old laptop for this purpose among others like RTA, recording etc.

Speaking for myself, a few years back I found myself in the position where my two workhorse MD decks were showing their age mechanically and the choice of replacements on the market was very limited (and only the expensive "pro" units featured Auto Pause which I consider essential).

However, since making the move to computer I've found that I'm doing things in terms of layering and cueing (I work in theatre don't forget) that I would never have atempted on MD. I've also found the computer actually more reliable than MD or CD despite fears to the contrary.

Storage capacity is not an issue for me...but not having to dub things from PC to MD every time certainly is, as is the ability to have a simple DAW with me in the theatre for simple edits and processing on the fly.

Bob

Thanks Drew
I have tried the direct connection yesterday and you and others are right there is some bad interference which I cannot have. I do not need stereo so only one DI box if I got this way, but if I may still get interference then I must opt for a decent external sound card, so I am going to choose this route.
Thanks again JOY

Oh yea, I was thinking of 'Internal'.

dohhh.
Good luck with your search Joy.

HI, I am testing out the computer option since I am attracted to the non interruption of having to keep changing mini disks and to have the ease of varying playlists for audiences. I am using minidisk at the moment and I have absolutely no sound problems at all, so it may be stick with what works: this may be the case since I cannot figure out how to control the output of different tracks using the laptop. When I record CD backing tracks to minidisk I can control signal output by increasing/decreasing db's and I can also check tracks after on my mixer LED. All my tracks are then around about the same output, varied a bit for ballad or rock songs. Hence, during a live performance I do not have to alter volumes for differnt tracks. This at the moment seems to be the big plus when using minidisk as I cannot see that you can do this with a laptop. I have ripped and converted my CD backing tracks using winamp pro, using the onboard FLAC decoder. I am thinking of trying a different decoder to see if this works any better. If anyone has any know-how as to how to control signal output using laptop I would be happy.

Thanks everyone for different suggestions re connections from laptop to mixer/PA. A Great Help

JOYl

For ripping I would suggest using CDEX and ripping to WAV files. Uncompressed, highest quality

Joy,

Re: controlling levels, may I suggest a two stage process.

First, transfer CDs into the computer by ripping them...I use the freeware "Exact Audio Copy" which is available for down load. Then use an audio editor (Audacity is freeware) to "normalise" the tracks to the same level. For performance use I'll often actually apply a bit of compression to keep the quiet bits above expected ambient noise.

Done this way you have full control of levels and the highest quality.

Bob

Unless Audacity has become a lot more clever than since I last used it, normalising won't help. The process of normalising simply looks at the peak level of a track and pays no attention to the average level which is what the ear responds to. Most CDs will have already been mastered to peak at 0dBFS so normalising won't make any difference.

I would suggest adjusting the levels by ear - it's the only really reliable way of ensuring that they sound the same sort of level.

or you could get a macbook and Qlab. It has lovely fade curves and can trim levels.

This has nearly persuaded me to move entirely to computer based playback, only thing missing for me is a great big external USB 'GO' button.

Yup.... Qlab for me to.

It's so simple I managed to teach all the drama teachers at school how to use it in 15mins!

Also, back to the OPs question, I have never had problems using the built in audio in my macbook, except when have a mouse plugged in to the USB port right next to the audio out.

Though "get a mac" properly wasn't the advise you where looking for!

Cheers

Jamie

Sorry I may has missed something, what program are you going to use to play the tracks Joy?

Winamp.

I supopse 'get a mac' is not entirely helpful. If you want/need to stay with a PC then there are some nifty cue programs from the radio world. I'll try and find out from a friend which one he uses. He sticks a touch screen overlay on his laptop and it has a nice big segue button in the corner.

External sound card is the best option, as the audio quality on laptops really is not good!

Why use winamp? There is much better software out there!

For free, look at 'Multiplay' (in the software release forum), and for payware look at 'Sound Cue System'. They are both really great pieces of software. Multiplay is good if you just want to do playing back of cues, Sound cue system allows you to do clever MIDI stuff for linking up with other MIDI devices. For example lighting desks and keyboards.


Hope this is of SOME help!


Tom

Hi Rob,

I get your point: MD's a great medium for lots of reasons, but you have to admit it's not compatible with anything else - as in drag and drop file transfer...and the format's days are numbered: it's not easy to even buy the discs anymore. Laptop's always worked fine for me, and if not, there're plenty of rock-solid rack-mount file players out there.

Ade

Wilkinsons is the best place I have found for mini discs.

This may sound crass but the best program I have to play mp3's is virtual dj.
I can select playlists, ie, spot 1, 2, so on, put them in any order and even select 'smart play' which merges each track together, if so desired.

If anyone out there wants this please PM me.

Another vote for the virtualdj software. Lots of flexibility within it.
It will fall foul of a bad sound card though.

I'd be interested to know what's available in terms of rackmount file players. I have used Marantz flash recorders (PMD560/70/80) to play tracks, and I know that Tascam have recently launched some, but beyond that I'm not really up to speed on what's out there.

I have looked at Cdex on their site and can see that it would do the job, and has vorbis which someone else has recommended. Am I right in saying that CDEX does not enable you to control output. Winamp does enable this, as another member suggested to me, to use the Repay Gain, which I have now calculated for all my tracks. I just have not tested it out yet. However, do you have a suggestion here?


Thanks JOY

A concurrent post has been automatically merged from this point on.



Not an immediate solution to my problem, which I think I have now gone someway to resolving with members help; however, my laptop power on/off is playing up so your suggestion may come in handy as will have to buy something to replace it probably sooner rather than later. If the Qlab enables trim levels (control output) then I may well purchase a macbook. Can I ask in what way does a macbook differ from a laptop and can I also ask what you are using exactly as you say "nearly moved to computer based playback"?

Thanks to all for their input on my problem and for the many suggestions. I have so learnt a lot from them.
Cheers JOY

It is a Laptop, just with the OS and hardware manufactured by the same company, meaning it is a bit more expensive, but it works. Apple have long been in the 'creative' industries, meaning that they seem to have things like the audio out sorted better. I've yet to come across a PowerBook/MacBook/Macbook Pro with a noisy output, and my machine is over 4 years old, has been round the world with me getting used everyday for 8 hours typically, just working, not requiring the constant fettling the PC's we have seem to need.

Sorry.... I'll shut up now. And yes I do Like Apple Products, but I don't get comission!

Well, count me as the first to find a noisy output on a Macbook for you then Pete!

A couple of years back a friend vaguely involved in the industry started bragging incessantly about the quality of his Macbook and how he didn't need an external sound card like I did with my IBM Thinkpad.

The next time we got together I did some measurements and the Macbook actually had a noise floor about 6dB WORSE than the Thinkpad. On inputs it was even worse again! Maybe my insistance on an external sound card was me just being fussy but it certainly gave Mike the wrong idea about relative quality!

I don't do much "fettling" either!

Bob

I have not been brave enough to stop having cd/minidisc as a backup.

if you are looking for new computer, in creative industries it has got to be mac's. I personally use PC at home at Mac in the studio and work. The mac's are a load better, yeah the outputs on the mac books are fantastic, but its because of the headphone optical all in one socket, which is cool, but not the best quality.

So an external sound is needed again. but in my opinion it always should be for laptops.

Look at professional studios, video editing suites, photo editing suites, anything like that, all macs.

Plus they are very stable, rarely (if ever) crash, and most importantly they just look so damn cool!

Tom

PCs can do all of that too; unfortunately most people ruin them by installing windows


It always winds me up when people say PC when what they actually mean is windows - the two are completely different. Likewise with "PC compatible" which usually actually means "windows compatible" - again not the same thing.
</OT mini rant>

How many video editing suites have you built? Prior to my retirement a couple of years back I had designed and built something like 40 NLE suites, mainly based around Avid technology but also some of the lesser-known system and all ran happily and reliably on PC hardware.

Similarly, BBC radio has standardised on Adobe Audition (formerly Cooledit Pro) for audio editing...and this ONLY runs on PC.

The PC vs. Mac argument comes up far too frequently and it's really pretty pointless. the hardware is just a tool and either can do the job, both with individual advantages and disadvantages. Most PC problems people have can be traced to people cluttering up their "work" computers with endless amounts of rubbish.

Bob

Me being daft again but I always thought "PC" stood for personal computer?

It does. Unfortunately, a lot of people confuse it with computer-running-windows. One could argue that a Mac is a PC

Returning to the original thread topic...

Having connected my laptop (Toshiba Equium) to the FOH sound desk at a well-known UK holiday resort for many months, I just plugged into the 3.5mm headphone jack socket, to a 1/4" jack plug, straight into the line input on the desk. If you're running a mono system, simply make a lead up with the tip (right) and ring (left) of the 3.5mm plug together to the tip of the mono 1/4" plug. If using a stereo rig, a simple 3.5mm to twin phono or twin jack is ok.

HOWEVER: I found that although I got *reasonable* sound quality, if I plugged my laptop into the mains, I got a lot of "buzz" from the power supply . Not 50Hz, more like a mix of 100Hz, 1.4kHz, 3KHz, 8kHz, 16kHz... This is because the switch-mode power supplies used in laptop PSUs operate at about 16kHz, which is the most efficient frequency for alternating magnetic flux in iron. That's why you get harmonics of that frequency right down the scale. Unplugging the laptop charger resolves the buzzing, but might not be a viable option if you're running it for a few hours!

I also used an external USB 5.1 sound card device with optical in/out, but you still get the buzzing on the line out connector, because it's still electrically connected. As perviously mentioned on this thread, if you have an optical input to the desk, use that. (A cheap cheat for this is to plug the optical into a minidisk deck and press [Rec], even without a disk in, to monitor the minidisc deck's input)

If you can find a USB to BALANCED audio device, go for that because any power-borne interference should be negated by the balanced signal.

I would beg to differ... I've regularly run laptops with an external audio interface (with unbalanced outputs) into DI boxes into mixers. That is effectively an audio interface with a balanced output. I nearly always find that you get noise, due to the previously-mentioned switch mode power supply harmonics on the signal earth which balancing cannot do anything about. Operating the earth lift switch on the DIs breaks this connection and kills the noise.

However, take a look here for a USB audio interface (output only) with transformer-isolated floating balanced XLR outputs. I have one of these and it never gives noise.

Hi
How much is the usb interface and where can you buy them from?