we as a church may possibly be moving from a school hall, which is rubbish for acoustics, to a cinema.

What challenges can I expect and any hints? We currently use four rather crap speakers so we will need to invest in some new ones, but what is the best way to get a decent sound across the whole venue without a permenent install? We will have to pack down every week ...

well the acoustics will be much much much better (loads more gain before feedback (which is what I find to be the main problem in those concrete box's))!

as for investing in new equipment more information is needed (size of venue, equipment used already, budget for new stuff if its needed)
have you asked if you could plug into the cinemas system?
it may mean a extra few pounds but it will mean there is less to setup/pack and possibly mean you don't have to buy anything new.

We can't use their sound system, sadly, but we can use their screen and projector ...

We will have a GL2400 desk, with hopefully all instruments having in ear monitors. The singers will be the only actual monitor speakers on stage.

In terms of size, it is about 238 seats, standard cinema affair. I haven't looked at speakers in ages, so no idea on what is good, prices etc.

I was thinking of having four speakers, two each side, with them slightly angled upwards, I.e. the top speakers angled towards the back seating.

I have to do this quite a lot in both lecture theatres and cinema venues and I have to say that I doubt the existing cinema system is suitable - namely because the speakers are often behind the screen at the front.

My suggestions - if you're using subs, be very aware that since there is such a lot of soft furnishings, then you may need to get some louder ones for them to have any impact. It's amazing how a pair of coupled mackie swa1501s really need to be pushed in a 200 seat lecture theatre to get a usable level. With regard to tops, think about how you will ensure even coverage. It is possible to get flying cradles for some models of speaker (D&B E series, HK actor, PS10, EV SX300, etc etc) and you could perhaps investigate using manfrotto style wind up stands with a flying cradle to aim the speakers accurately and ensure consistent coverage. You could also chuck a couple of lights a side up as well if you want!

Having said that, chances are you're going to struggle to find the money for that sort of solution, and so a couple of SRM 450s or RCF Arts on sticks, providing they are high enough, can also have reasonable results.

M

We've provided PA for awards ceremonies in Screen 1 of the local Odeon a few times...

First thing to note is that with all of those comfy seats and fabric lined wall panels, the sound is bone dry. It also required more power than you think (we used a couple of 15" cabs and were quite surprised how hard we had to push them - even just to amplify speech). Coverage was also an issue using two "normal" speaker stands - so if you can get a couple of (say smaller) cabs up high, it would help.

so, essentially, I am looking at, preferably, two subs and two tops, with tilt stands.

As we will be setting up every week, the simpler the solution the better.

I would of thought ideally 2 subs 4 tops

1 X 18 and 2 X (1x15+2") a side should cover you being driven at maybe 1K into the subs and 1K into the tops a side.(Although wattage is not a great guide its a starting point) Have a look at the new E.V. Tour X or something like that. Remember you WILL need some sort of reverb. As when you hear a P.A. in a cinema it will sound really strange as there is no natural reverb at all.

Ok so what is the budget here?

I presume as a church you have plenty?
I also understand that you have a band?

Comments on here are correct, soft seats and furnishings soak up loads of spl, you may need more than you think.
I'd probably ask a dealer to recommend something, let us know before you buy anything though!

John Denim.

Dont try and use a cinema audio system.

Cinema sound systems are built to the 'X curve', which basically means the speakers are very top dull, and sound naff on normal programme material.

Caveats - some systems can equalise "flat" audio with the HF preemphasis needed, but by nno means all.

This is a rushed reply, but if one is interested, a google on Academy curve will get you going.

thanks all.

to be honest, budget is as much as we need. It is not unlimited, but the budget is there to get what we need to get the job done.

Band as it stands at the moment, is keys, elec acoustic guitar, drums, bass, and up to 6 vocalists, with four normally being BV's.

I am also thinking that we will need a new amp as the current one is fine for our shabby four speakers, but I don't think it will have enough to drive four good and loud speakers.

So the shopping list:

2 x subs
4 x tops
1 x Xover
2 x amps
1 x reverb unit.

With regard to wireless mics, I am guessing that it would be wise to have the receivers stand side rather than desk side?

If the mics are just going to sit in stands, do they really need to be wireless?
Aside from that, locating them at the desk shouldn't present you with any problems, as long as you buy decent (not budget) radio mics.

the vocalist micophones won't be wireless, though we will go down that route eventually.

I was referring to tie-clip and handheld (1 of each). We will try with them by the desk, to start with.

The problem I can forsee with all of this is that the first time I will get to check out the venue, with the kit will be the morning of the first service.

Me thinks it will be early start, but at least I have a few months to think about it.

An area I would consider at this stage, is the proposed system easy to set up/dismantle. Practical considerations such as mixer in a flightcase with dog box and another with amps and outboard, plus premade looms with multiway connectors would be high on my list of priorities.
Brian

Hi crox,

Earlier this year a very well known church who use the Odeon in Enfield contacted us wanting to do exactly the same thing. It worked out very simply, that being that set-up and pack down was such an issue (they were only given 15 minutes each side of service !! to do it) that they ended up going straight for an active system comprised of RCF ART522A's as the full range box which they put on stands 10 metres up. These were great for the job because of the light weight nature of the new digital ART boxes, we simply got the technicians here to make them some 10M long IEC leads and gave them some nice long van damme XLR's to boot. I would say go active and have a look at the new ART range with the more powerful sub. You will only need 2 x tops and 2 x subs.

setup and packdown is always at the forefront of my mind ...

The desk and racks are all sorted as I am waiting for a new desk to arrive. Doxbox and looms all feature.

I will have a look at active systems, not something I had thought of to be honest.

As mentioned before, the accoustics should make the mix much easier, though may need reverb where you never have before, and will suck quite a lot from the power.

But don't underestimate the psychoaccoustic effect on the congregation, where it will be quite strange singing in such a dry environment.

Like others, I'd push as hard as possible for a system that's quick & easy to set up/down, even if this expands the budget.

That first service will be a strange experience, but hope it all goes well for you.

I agree that cinemas are generally pretty dry places - but there's always an exception - in my local odeon, screen 1 is the balcony of the original single screen, and screens 2 and 3 fit under the old balcony - leaving the original front stalls as a cavernous wasteland (when I first went there, it was a graveyard for old projection gear, but they've cleared up now). This makes for quite a livley acoustic, and I tend to prefer the smaller screens, because although it's nice to watch on the original 70mm widescreen, loud movies become a bit muddy and garbled soundwise.

I'd look for two tops and four subs personally. Exactly how much are you looking to spend?

You could 'do it' with a Mackie rig, although it's going to be 'okay' at best. Their speakers don't array well and hence even with a pair of SA1532Zs and SWA2801Z subs, you'll struggle to get good volume out of them (plus the SA1532Zs are unnecessarily big and won't be very easy to mount higher up).

If your budget can really stretch, then I'd speak to someone from d&b, contact them via their website. They're essentially the best PA speakers on the market. They'd probably suggest something like the Q series, or possibly the E series.

If not d&b, then maybe a Meyer or Nexo rig?

With respect to all those saying "2 tops" or "4 tops" or whatever, they're putting the cart before the horse.

Look at the dimensions of the room and the coverage you need, then look at the cabinets you can get for your money. You may find that you can get some very efficient cabs with coverage angles that are sufficient for you room--if so, that's a big advantage. On the other hand, if the cinema is a funny shape or something you may find you need more than two cabs per side to get adequate coverage. This is all basic protractor work on a plan of the room. To advocate a particular number of speakers without doing this research (or knowing the coverage of the boxes you're going to use) is turning engineering into a game of chance.

Given your setup time restrictions, I'd be looking to use the smallest number of very efficient cabs you can get away with. Powered boxes also sound a potentially good idea to me.

As for the "dryness" of the room, personally I'd always have it this way and add a bit of reverb than try to get decent sound in some of the echoey barns I've been in!

Bob

thanks all.

I am visiting the venue on Monday, so hopefully will get dimensions et al.

We don't have a huge amount of stage space, which will make it interesting, so that much we will have to play by ear.

I like the idea of using their screen as a projector though!

So do they have the screen for screen 1 in it's original place, so there is a big gap before the seats start? Sounds strange. Why not fill this area with seats?! Where is this out of interest? Old cinemas are such interesting places! There's one round here that's a nightclub now, and it's very strange to see how they've fitted it in, and all the bits of original features poking out.

we visited the venue this week. The 'angle' of the seating is very shallow, far less than my local Odeon.

It brought up lots of other questions but none overcomable.

We will have a dry run if not two before we move (prob Jan), so we either buy the kit beforehand, take the plunge, or try and hire the kit in ... but the chances of getting the exact kit locally? As if ...

I will have a look at the RCF Art range ... going active for both tops and subs naturally has advantages. I'm guessing that we would need a crossover ... any thoughts? It has been a long time since I used one.

You may not need a Crossover if you buy subs and tops from the same range.

Chances are that the sub will contain a crossover or at the very least a low pass filter for the sub itself.

Josh

a contact has recommended the HK Contour Array for our use, the cost is higher than we had hoped for. Blowing £3800 for the tops (using HK pricing) and then £6000 for the subs is pretty significant ...

Any thoughts? Cheers ...

Is your contact an HK audio dealer? If you feel like being charitable and increasing their profit margins during the credit crunch, then I'm sure they'd appreciate it, but tbh I think that a line array is not the right solution for a 250 seat lecture theatre. If you do HAVE to buy a line array, at least make it a well thought of and widely used one - D&B q1, DVDOSC, Vertec, Martin W8LM rather than just another manufacturer trying to play catch up with the latest speaker design fad.

There is no reason, especially given the shallower than expected rake, that a conventional system wouldn't be very good for that room, and be more than powerful. If it's anything like the sort of 250 seat raked spaces we work in - ie about 10m wide, about 40 m long, then we've had fine results with the following:

Ohm TRS 112/118
Db Opera
Old RCF ART
Mackie srm 450/ swa1501

All of these, when set up on sticks can produce the sort of 92-95dbA level at FoH we're looking for for contemporary worship stuff with just about enough headroom and fine coverage. If I'm going to do it a bit more posh I go for two martin W3 on sticks with some martin 15" subs, but that's because it's what we have in stock.

Ideally, I'd consider using flying yokes instead of speaker stands, and would also think from past experience about using D&B E12 or C690, or something similar from another manufacturer's product range. Maybe RCF TT22, or kv2 ex12 or EM acoustics EMS121.

Having said that the other option would be to look at a ground stack system like HK actor, which would mean you could angle the tops upward to achieve even coverage, would be quick to rig, would be active, have ample sub energy and sound good. Just make sure that you get covers for the speakers as they can get easily dented when you transport them.

Final point - make sure you buy enough channels of decent graphic eq for both front of house and monitors while the money's available. Then learn how to use it. Then use it... Then put a security panel over it in the rack to stop others fiddling with it! It will make mixing infinitely simpler for you in the long run!

Matt

An idea might be to try hiring a few different systems for your first few services, to let you try different options without committing a large amount of money. Depending who you buy from, you may be able to arrange a deal with the supplier to offset the hire cost in the event you do buy a system from them.

Do HK say the Contour Array is a line array? If so, then I didn't think so.

If you had a steep rake on the seating then I'd have said that it would be a good option to look at.

Have you checked what the dispersion of the various mid/highs in the range are?

Source accessed 11:33 29/12/08

Also there apparently isn't a steep rake on the seating. TBH, I just think you can get enough spl and even coverage using cheaper system concepts so there's no need to shell out £10K + amps for the tops + LMS - so about £12 K in total - if an actor rig can do the job really well at about 4k give or take for everything.

Take care,

Matt

Point taken. I thought it skated the line between pretending to be a line array and not actually being one.

Not convinced about the dispersion of the ACTOR tops being very helpful though.

I keep bragging up these speakers, but look at KV2 and have a demo before you buy anything. They are very good speakers and will definately suit the purpose you want, especially the ex range.

thanks all.

Matt, the venue is more the opposite, wider than it is longer, typical cinema really.

I am fairly confident that I will get better prices for the HK gear, but will have a look at the other optons.

6th: I am not far from you, in Helhougton at the mo' ... lovely weather this morning eh

I'd second KV2 products for a church install.

They have incredibly efficient high end reproduction, which offers you greater clarity across speech reproduction, while still kicking out plenty of SPL across the rest of the frequency range.
In particular, they are very good boxes for intelligibility at lower levels.

The ES series also have a rotatable horn (90 x 60 degrees) on the mid/top box which will allow you to alter the dispersion as necessary for larger and smaller audiences.

edit:

Their "EPAC" units which provide amplification and DSP also allow for a great amount of versatility for setting up different configurations - they even do a version the same dimensions as the mid/top box to allow you to stack it in with the loudspeakers and get more height for improving the systems "throw".

So then Crox,

What are the (approx) dimensions of the room?

I've just re-read this thread and there are so many options, it might be helpful to eliminate a few!

Also PM sent.

we are going in Monday so will have approx dimensions then. It is wider than it is long IIRC.

PM replied.

Pics if you can then...

I am visiting the venue in about an hour, so pics will be up later with dimensions.

The budget is £4 - £5K for the speakers (incl subs) ... which puts the HK Contour Array out of the question, despite getting it at a wallet friendly price.

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right, been in and out.

We didn't take a tape measure, so can't give accurate sizes, but is 12 seats deep, with shallow rack, and 14 seats wide in the middle, with arc, with 4 seats each side. It is wider than it is deep.

The rack is very shallow, so not like most Odeon's, but we have heard that they might be changing it to something like Odeon's so we will probably have to review our kit "when" that happens.

I hope to have a CAD drawing of the venue today or tomorrow so will post that up.

right, the drawing is found here: clicky

the pics are:






The slope isn't that bad, and despite what the eyes tell you, it is actually longer than it is wider, just ...

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bump, anyone?

That's pretty much identical to the cinema/lecture theatre that we use for the same purpose in terms of size and rake angle (I got my measurements wrong earlier). Our experience in our venue is that any reasonably decent 90x40 ish loaded plastic box active system will do fine. If you want to do better then you could probably successfully use any number of professional 90 x40 ish speaker on sticks style boxes - you've got a rectangular venue with decent acoustics and a rake that's well within the nominal 40 degree vertical coverage of most horns! Just try them and see what you can get on offer at the time, and what you like. If you need demos, then in my limited experience the guys at RCF, D&B UK, SFL Group, Wigwam, EM acoustics, Martin, and Fuzion (Nexo) have always been really helpful as long as you're serious about buying.

Whatever you do, if you go for a speakers on sticks solution, make sure you get some nice wind up speaker stands like these tho!

M

we are going to demo a HK Contour Array with 2 subs and 2 tops for each side. The same system was used at Epic Studios in Norwich over the Christmas break, which is just as dead as it is a television studio. Although the kit used then was multiplied up from what we will be looking at getting, the sound engineer at that church said he would be quite jealous, as they are only using a Logic 1296 system. We also really like the upgradeability of the C/Array range as it is easy to increase the number of subs and tops as and when productions or growth facilitate.

It is a massive move for us, so the sound needs to say to people that the move was worth it. We don't want to start putting speakers up high, mainly due to time constraints in set-up but also H&S with positioning of stands etc.

It really depends on whether the people who control the budgets agree with our thoughts ... as it is a heck of a lot of money ...

Looking again at those pics, it seems you have a pretty small area to setup FOH in (plus band etc)

It looks a little more challenging to get sound to the first few rows and the back without something vertically arrayable.

Plastic boxes on sticks may well not do it.

Are you using any staging?

no staging currently, though we might have to do it in the long run. One thing at a time ...