Hi Folks

New here so hope this is in the right spot.

Just setting up gear for our band and wondered what feedback (no pun intended) I'd get from you all on the equipment I'm about to buy.

I have a pair of Peavey SP3s which I bought some time ago and really like the sound I get from them. They are the 'new' model, with Black Widow woofer, midrange and tweeter. Input capacity is 600w RMS so not too micky mouse for what we do.

Looking at an end result of the following:

1 x Yamaha MG24/14 mixing desk
1 x Sabine PBX 2400 Feedback destroyer

2 x Peavey CS 4080HX Amps
- 1 to drive the SP3s
- 1 to drive a pair of Peavey SP118 Sub Woofers

1 x Peavey PV 2600 Amp to drive 2 x passive floor monitors (Peavey PV 15M 250w RMS two-way)
1 x DBX 223XL Crossover unit

For effects we're thinking of using the built-in stuff on the Yamaha MG24 but we haven't tried this yet so not sure whether they are any good.

No idea at this point whether the monitors I'm talking about are any good or whether they will not be man enough for the job so any advice there would be greatly appreciated.

Cheers
Chris

Not used any of that gear specifically apart from the Yammie - and I have to say I'm a fan of the MG desks (I have the tiny 102C on order actually). The in built effects aren't the most comprehensive in the book from memory, but what's there does sound nice - I shouldn't think you'll need to use an outboard.

I've used a few Peavy cabs (not those specific ones though) and I can't say I'm an overall fan of them generally - they do the job but there's something I just can't put my finger on with them. That said, a lot of it comes down to personal taste and others might well recommend them.

Hope that helps!

My 2p:
Potentially sounds good. I'd swap the feedback destroyer for a graphic equaliser - this gives you the added functionality of being able to "tune" your system to the room as well as remove feedback frequencies. Also, the function of feedback destroyers is something regularly debated here - have a quick search.
I've used Hysis 4s which are black widow driven - they sounded ok, but needed a bit of EQ to make them sound to my taste. I'd expect the SP3s to be of a similar standard - reasonable and good value for money .
I have 2 mixers from the MG series - MG16/4 and MG124C. They're not bad at all and easy to use, but I find the EQ a bit limiting. The MG24/14FX does have a sweepable mid, which would probably make this desk suitable for your purpose. If you want to go 2nd hand and get better value for money, I would suggest you look at a used Soundcraft LX7 (about the same as a 1st hand 24/14) - I reckon their preamps and EQs sound better for live music than anything else I've used in that price bracket. You can pick one up for anywhere between £250-500 on eBay - I have one, PM me if you're anywhere near me and would like to try it.
I suspect that someone will suggest a second hand A&H MixWizard at some point, but I'd go Soundcraft (or Midas) for music everytime.

What sort of events are you likely to be doing?

HTH
Chris

Edit - You wouldn't have FX on an LX7 or equivilent - if you still wanted them, you'd need to buy an external one. Second hand LX7 + FX processor probably costs about what a new 24/14 would.

I was just going to comment on the effects before I saw the end of Chris' post! As he points out there are alternatives if you want to scrap the in built effects and go for outboard units, but IMHO it's probably easier just to use the in built ones and have one less thing to lug around if they fit your purpose.

As for feedback destroyer / graphic eq, I can see arguments both ways - the eq gives you more flexibility, but the feedback destroyer is much easier to use if you're not sure what you're doing, and it can make very deep cuts in very narrow frequency bands, so the overall sound is barely affected at all. Pulling the 1K down on a graphic eq however will pull down quite a comparatively large chunk of frequencies either side! If you do go for the feedback destroyer though, make sure you set it to "scan" the room first and then lock it rather than telling it to find feedback on the fly...

I use a feed back destroyer, and a graphic EQ, the destroyer is left on bypass alot of the time, but there are the 1 evening jobs, start at 3 to rig, show at 7, strip at 10 type of jobs it is incredibly usefull for.

I do limit it to about 5 filters otherwise it does start to affect the sound, not noticable generally on vocals/speech but it is very noticable on pre-recorded music and some instruments, it can end up sounding "hollow"

I do like the onboard effects of the MGs, I have the 14 and the 32 channel versions of this desk, and for its price its fantastic at what it does.

it depends on what you want to do with regard to effects, On the 32, with twin, for vocals, I have them both set on large hall, one about 3/4 param, the other 1/4 with less of the former. it gives a good balance for a long and short reverb.

I do also have an outboard reverb that is used for electric pianos etc.

defianly use the destroyer locked though, its not nice trying to use them effectivly "on the fly" and IMO, they take too long to react to true feedback anyway and end up takng out long tones etc rather than what they should, used to ring out they are great .

True, but depends on the graphic EQ - this is true of a constant Q EQ, but not of a variable Q. </pedant>
A variable Q is better for killing feedback as it has sharper notches and it is the personal taste of the sound engineer which is better for "shaping".
Behringer make an EQ that has a feedback destroyer in it if you'd like to have one. No idea of the quality of the fb des, but the EQ is brilliant for the price (around £110 new). I think it allows you to lock the filters as well. This is the DEQ1024 - http://www.guitarampkeyboard.com/en/behringer-deq-1024/12605.
I used to use one of those for my main FOH before I bought an XTA and had no problems at all with it. It even has a spectrograph to tell you which fader to move to kill the feedback.

HTH
Chris

<pedant>In which case do you mean a paragraphic eq, not a normal graphic eq?</pedant>

I agree that variable Q ones are better for feedback killing when used correctly, BUT only when used correctly - it all depends on the sound man!

If the OP is perfectly comfortable with adjusting the Q and whacking down a fader on a 31-band before feedback gets out of hand, then by all means go for it. A lot of people prefer it that way anyway, since it allows more customisation (and graphics were around long before feedback destroyers!) But if not, then the straight feedback destroyer seems like the sensible option to me. Really just comes down to preference

I mean something like the XTA GQ600 - it varies the Q depending on how much gain/attenuation is used on the fader. Technically not a paragraphic I think because you can't manually adjust the Q. The Q is wider with less gain and thinner with more gain, means you can shape the sound by adjusting lots of faders a small amount and kill feedback by adjusting 1 fader lots. If anyone knows more about these than me, then do correct if I am mistaken.

Anyhow, OT done..., definately preference - the DEQ1024 has a variable Q setting (like the XTA is set up) which calls itself "true curve" that you can use for shaping and feedback destroying.

Chris

Ta for the comments, they certainly do help. It would be great if someone here had actual experience of the SP3 cabs. I've had mine for over a year but have never used them for anything serious other than the Roland TD-10 drum kit and they certainly do that huge wads of justice. However, we've never used them for vocals other than at low levels at practice and certainly never used them for PA use when we've mic'ed the drums, amps, etc., so it's hard to guess {a} what they'd be like to handle the "tops" and {b} what kind of quality the SP118 Peavey subwoofers are at handling the big transients like bass drum "whump" etc.

What was it you didn't like - tone? Were they weak, not clear, etc.?

Cheers
Chris

A concurrent post has been automatically merged from this point on.


Actually, we'll probably start out with a straight 32 band equaliser and go from there. We tried it in a confined space the other evening and managed to get the mics to stop howling even at pretty loud levels, even though the mic was sitting right in front of a speaker. Amazing. I only mention the Sabine FBX2400 because from what I'd heard it saves a lot of time ringing out the system. The other day, using someone elses kit, took us two and a half hours to set up and get the feedback squashed. I was wondering if having something like the Sabine unit would allow us to {a} quickly kill the feedback and {b} leave it on auto so that any ringing later is quickly resolved.


We already have the MG24/14. When you say the EQ is a little limiting, are we talking about not enough tone (bass, mid, highs) adjustment?


Thanks very much for the most kind offer. We probably won't do that considering we've already gone down the MG24 route but I'd still love to hook up sometime and see what your desk is like compared to the Yamaha.


We are a (wait for it...) Cliff & The Shadows tribute band. We play clubs ranging from fairly small (150 - 200 people) to large (400 - 600 people). Sometimes we do the occasional outdoor event (largest we've done is 3000 people) but this is not often. We're heading in the direction of Corporate and Theatre-type venues I think...

All the best
Chris

Go with that, with practice you'll be able to ring out fairly quickly. Have a look around the web - there's lots about different techniques if you delve deep enough. There's even a feedback trainer which plays random frequencies which you have to guess at - that's been mentioned on here before so have a search . If you get really stuck, you can buy a hand-held spectrum analyser to tell you what frequencies are feeding back. (a budget solution to this is to get an instrument tuner with a mic in it and learn what notes are what frequencies or keep a table).
Leaving a feedback destroyer on auto is potentially a bad idea. I've never personally used a feedback destroyer, but people say that they tend to turn down the wrong notes or be slow. I'll leave that for someone else to answer though.



The MGs I have only have 3 bands and no sweepable mid, which doesn't give much control.
I find that it's a bit harder to hear what the EQ's doing on my MGs as compared to my LX7 and that the LX7 just feels a bit smoother. It's hard to explain in words but if you've tried different desks then you'd probably know what I mean by the "feel" of a control.

Cliff and the Shadows... no idea who they are...
I ask because I find that the style of music very much affects what equipment etc is necessary (eg. metal music needs a much larger PA than jazz for a given venue IMHO)
At a guess I expect your rig will be good for most of the events you play but if you have many more than 500 people you might need to look at hiring one in, or some extra speakers or something.

PM sent
Chris

The only time I'd ever do that would be in a fixed installation where whatever reinforcement was there was only used for speech, and didn't have anyone operating it. The problem is if you leave it on auto, it can't tell the difference between a singer blasting out a long note at 1k and howling horrible feedback at 1k. Long notes in general tend to be an issue, because it just can't tell the difference! So generally, it cuts them both out - which is obviously not what you want at all!

In terms of a spectrum analyser - never used it in practice but http://www.e.kth.se/~johk/jdft/ is a free one. Can't do any harm to try it out, and should be enough to gauge what's feeding back. That said, you might be better to just do without it and try to train your ear to pick up the right frequencies - up to you.

And I think Chris was referring to the simple feedback trainer: http://sft.sourceforge.net/

I know what Chris is saying about the sweepable mid, I do always much prefer one if it's available. Sometimes I really do feel like I need one! But if you haven't got it, I wouldn't have thought it's the end of the world in this situation.


Overall to these ears the clarity just wasn't there as much as I would've liked, and they needed a bit too much eq to get where I wanted them for my liking. That said, it's entirely subjective, so others might like them!

Hi there

Well... thanks for the input. I'm still undecided as to whether to go for the Peavey SP118s or not. I found a review on them which sounds fairly positive :

http://www.proaudioreview.com/december99/Peavey-Web.shtml

Whatcha think then?

Cheers
Chris