Hi All

Great place you have here - I'm a first timer.

I can do loads with PA stuff, having done hifi retail for around a decade, but I'm newish to mic techniques, so would like some help please.

Situation is my boy and girl (7 years old) are both in the local school play.

There'll be anything from one speaking part to a small group, say 15 or 20 kids.

I need a low tech set up (very much on a budget here) that'll give a small amount of reinforcement - just bring their voices up so it's a bit louder.

We have a:

Yamaha 8 ch mixer
FBT power amp
Toa 12 inch speakers
Some dynamic mics

What we want to do is stay away from radio mics - too expensive to buy or hire, too much work for the teachers to try to mic up kids. Low tech is the word of the day!

I'm thinking condenser shotgun mics...

Any suggestions with regards to placement? The stage has a proscenium, and the mic'd area will be 4.5m wide and 3m deep.

Any ideas greatly appreciated!

Shotgun mics have a very narrow field, I would suggest some good floor/boundary mics or PZM's, if you can get some Crown PCC-160's that would be best. I've used the PCC-160's and some Audio Technica's both have worked well but the PCC-160's were the best IMO.

Place them at the edge of the front of the playing area, if you can get 3 then do Left, Center and Right but if not then just right and left should do fine.

If radio mics are out (and I understand the problem of primary school budgets) then I have to agree with Sony's suggestion of some form of boundary mics.

However, make sure you control expectations (even your own) of how much reinforcement you'll get using any form of distant miking. Any mics used like this only perform at their best when the sound on stage is already projecting pretty well. You're not going to get much from the shy 5 year old speaking her lines at a whisper. If you're the poor soul charged with trying to get something out of this, I suggest you practice your Scotty from Star Trek imitation...particularly his line about "I cannae change the laws of physics" for when the proud parents complain they can't hear their little star.

Bob

Hi guys

Thanks very much for the great replies.

What about this?

http://www.globalmediapro.com/do/product/1772

Carey

Thanks for the link - There are a few of this kind about, and they usually perform pretty well. The 160 mentioned is the stock boundary mic always recommended, but it is very expensive. For occasional use, I've got a few cheapies and to be honest, they do the job pretty well. For this price, you could buy 3 and try them out across the opening. The main snag, as mentioned is that they just make whatever balance you have a bit loiuder. So the kid with the pale pink voice being wiped ot by their noisy neighbour will still be wiped out by an even louder kid next door! They also pick up sniffs, shuffles an floor noise. The main reason for using them would be if they have to sing along with music, and this is too loud. Using these mics you might be able to get overall volume up a bit - but gain before feedback is limited!

to cut out floor noise on PZMs try a bit of rubber or foam under the mic. usually works pretty well.

....a great use for old mouse pads and a bit of double-sided carpet tape.

Bob

I was just about to post that, about the mouse pads. Beaten to it!

Actually, Carey, you are in an ideal position to influence the overall improvement of the production - by 'using' your two offspring as peer examples.

If you work with your kids at improving their own diction and projection so that they can make themselves more clearly heard (both to the audience and any mics you put in) then they can certainly influence those around them to do likewise (without even knowing they're doing so).

The trick is, of course, to start this EARLY on in the rehearsal process so there's time for the practice to promulgate amongst the other kids.

But if the show's next week, then you may have an extremely hard task ahead of you.

Good point, Ynot!

Moving slightly OT for this forum, I'll mention that one of the best youth productions I've ever worked on was directed by a guy who specialised in drama workshops for kids--and who also knew the value of projection. I saw him do an exercise where he stood at the back of the auditorium with a large target and had the kids imagine they were throwing their voices at the bullseye. It sounded a bit artie-fartie to me but it seemed to work and gave me one of the easiest mixing jobs ever. Might be worth a try.

Bob

Now here's a random thought....

Paint a big target, stick a rifle mic in the bull's ring.
Take that to the back of your hall/auditorium and face target at cast on stage.
Line up a couple of foldback speakers aimed squarely at the stage.
Tell the individual to speak/sing at the target and feed the pickup from the rifle into the foldback so they should be able (hopefully!) to hear themselves.
Then tell 'em to do the same, but softly, and to either side of the target so THEY can hear the difference.

Hey - that could even work!!
You may need to get closer to pick up the REALLY quiet ones, but it could be a medium tech option to a low tech idea!!

Wow - thanks again!

It's good to know those GlobalMediaPro mics should do the trick.

We tried the shotgun mic this morning and it worked surprisingly well. I had the kids work on their projection, as you all suggested (I did a lot of acting at school) and bringing the kids forward half a meter also helped a lot.

Two boundary mics and one shotgun, some extra cables and stuff will top out the budget, but it sounds like we're gonna get some acceptable results.

The teachers are actually really happy just to have me helping and have their collective head screwed on pretty well, and understand that a few hundred bucks isn't going to recreate the Zooropa Tour in their hall.

One more question - we WILL have a lot of stomping of feet, so if it's unacceptably loud, can I hang the boundary mics from the proscenium?

Carey

Bad idea for 2 reasons.

1. Generally floor boundary mics only work if they are in their upright position, so if the sticky out bit on top swings away from the stage, you will actually be able to here the audience.

2. If for some reason unknown to anyone a mic was to fall and break on stage, the bill from the rental company would make undesirable viewing for the headteacher. We had one break a few weeks ago, cost £120 to replace.


Edit - Dodgy quote box

Really? That is weird, because I've used the PCC's and Audio Technica's upside down mounted on the ceilings and taped to walls sideways. As long as the front of the mic is pointed towards the actors it doesn't matter. Some strong tape or screws in the wall using the mount holes on the units should be way more then enough to keep it from moving. The rental thing is also a non-issue...from my understanding he is Purchasing the units, not renting them. Therefore what he does to them is his business, this is also why he is getting cheap units that only cost £30 each.

You can hang them from the Proscenium carey but even easier then that is to get some computer mousepads and place them under the boundary mics. This usually helps a lot with stomping and other floor noise, if thats not enough then yes you can mount them on the proscenium, they should have mounting points on them since the description does say that they are able to be used on walls.

Maybe I misread Sony. I was under the impression he was planning to dangle the from their XLR cable, causing them to spin. I usually use car sponges to place under the mics. very thick you see

Ah yes, now I understand, no you can't let them dangle from the XLR cable...thats bad for the cable and yes it will be difficult to control the direction. However as long as they are mounted properly you should have no issues. Car sponges seem like a good idea but I think they would be really visually distracting because they are so big.

A couple of general points about hanging mics.

First, the whole idea of boundary mics is that they need to be, well, on a boundary, I.e. a flat surface. They actually use being flat on the surface to eliminate the phase cancellation you can get on a conventional mic a few inches off the surface.

....which leaves mounting the mics flat on the ceiling. This works as far as the boundary mic is concerned but another issue comes into play: the inverse square law. As the microphone moves away from the sound source, each time you double the distance the received level is quartered. By definition. a mic near the feet of a 3 foot tall thespian is going to be closer to them than one mounted on a 10 or 12 foot ceiling. Basically, you'll get far less pickup as the mic becomes more distant.

Bob

Ah lads you're all champs - maybe not at rugby, but champs nonetheless!

Yes I was thinking of hanging them from the cable, but I can see why that'd be BAD - it'll be interesting to see what issues we have and whether sponge can eliminate footfalls.

Yes I am buying the mics - the school is planning a big upgrade of the hall, so everything is going into the pot for future use.

I read loud and clear the tip on the boundary mics using the boundary - funny how the obvious answer is usually the best one...Occam's Razor I believe.

I think we will get a great result, and my skill with mics is on an exponential curve for the better - which is great cause it's actually business for me as well, as I have a nice new shiny performance theatre to quote for soon.

I might let y'all help me design it!

The PCC160 appears to have its own "flat surface" built into it so presumably would work correctly even if hanging in free space. Or have I misunderstood its design?

Another point often made here, is that nervous actors, especially kids, tend to look down and shuffle their feet; no matter how well they projected in rehearsals: A boundary mic on the stage front edge picks up both rather well, so you get 1 plus (voice 'ole facing down) and 1 minus (Shuffle, shuffle) but the latter is reduced considerably by a pad of 1-2 cms thick foam under the mic. I use the handy 1.5cm thick foam from the mic box .

I think most boundary mics have a plate of sorts built-in, but the stage surface provides a huge extension to this: I have always made a "ramp" of gaffer tape to slide the sound up over the front of the foam pad: Possibly black magic, but "If it ain't broke........."

I also fix the mics in position with gaffer, using a contrasting colour (silver for a black mic, black for a white one etc.) to create a No-Go area for hoofers' tootsies................ There's an unnerving Bang when they're tap-danced upon!

Pete

The gaffer tape works well to keep them there, but the idea behind boundary microphones is the concept that by placing the mic element in, or close to a reflective surface, that surface plays no part in the paths to the element - so sound 'sliding' up from parallel to the floor is exactly what boundary types try to remove from the total.

Imagine a room with hard, washable surfaces such as a police interview room where important audio needs to be recorded. There are 6 surfaces - each one facing another. Exactly the worst kind of space - reflections, standing waves - horrible. Makes audio clarity difficult to achieve. By placing the mic into the surface of the wall, that surface can play no part in what is 'collected' by the mic. This gives a very real reduction in the reflections that destroy the clarity. In practice, sticking the plate onto the wall is close enough, or in our case, sitting it on the stage.

Sounds like you know faaaarrr toooo much about police cells!

Now I see the physics of it - it makes sense.

I'll keep you posted on the results. We have about 3 weeks up our sleeves, so I'll have time to do some experiments and report back.

Kind regards

Carey

The Crown Tech Made Simple sheet and Boundary Microphone Application Guide give quite a lot a helpful information about mic placement.

This thread from last year also has an interesting discussion.

Malcolm

That has some really useful stuff on, perhaps it should be on the wiki.

Hi Carey,

Have you considered getting yourself a pair of Condenser mic's to throw overhead? Or even maybe four? One Either side and a couple overhead? You can pick up the cheap Behringer pairs for around $99 AUD (Pair). Here's the ones I'm talking about: http://www.behringer.com/C-2/index.cfm?lang=eng

Just a cheap option to consider, depends on the space and size of audience too...

Cheers, Brad

Added, although remember anyone can add stuff, and indeed if you see something that you feel may be helpful, just go straight ahead and stick it in the wiki, other people may miss it or forget about it.