Hi everyone,

I'm currently in the market for some new microphones to upgrade from what I had.

I will be buying some Sennheiser E604's, 3 toms, and one for snare bottom.

An SM57 for snare top.

Beta 52 and beta 91 for kick.

But I'm currently stuck for any ideas for overheads. My budget wont quite stretch to a pair of C414s! 

I'm looking to spend about £300 for a pair of large diaphragm overheads.

Cheers, Aidan.

Hi,

Have a look at the SE electronic range the pencil condensors may be what you are after, I know people have had good results wiuth these mics in the studio. Or try the AT4040 or AT4033a you may be able to get a pair for just about the £300 mark if you look.

Also for you Toms check out the Shure Beta 56 and check out the AKG D112 for your kick drum.

Hope this gives you more ideas to think about.

PS Are you using them for Live or Recordings? If the latter try some condensor mics on the toms instead or the dynamics. I would try and get to somewhere like Studiospares or Turnkey and ask for demos on a range of mics as well.

PPS Shame about not being able to get 414's, would be without mine now, so handy for drums, vocals, guitars, brass bands etc.

Small diaphragm mics would probably be more appropriate in this price bracket. The big problem with mics in this price range is that they're always a compromise. Some people like Rode NT5's while others hate them. The same goes for C1000's. It totally depends on what sort of sound you are looking for.

Cheers

James.

I think that in terms of high quality large diaphragm condensors the 414 is going to be your cheapest bet. Obviously the cheap as chips ones are great value, but I'm yet to find a mic that I could really recommend in between those and the 414. What I can say is that the AKG C3000 and 2000 are, like the C1000, in my experience, not good mics. I would really steer you away from buying them, because you're going to get a better sound out of a Samson one which costs half the price.

Instead, for overheads I'd look at smaller diaphragm mics like the Senn 614 and the AKG 451. Or, perhaps if you've got a tiny bit more cash, the large diaphragm AT4040/50 are good options

M

Thank you for the quick replys!
I should have metioned that they will be being used for live sound, not recording, but I'm not ruling out recording completely!

I will be adding a pair of C414's to my list, however to use on guitar cabs rather than drum overheads. I just can't quite stretch to 4.

What are people's experiences of the C214? Would this be a viable option for a pair of overheads, as they are just that bit cheaper than their big brothers. Or would a single 414 be better than any pair?

Cheers, Aidan.

A pair is much more flexible.

Beta56 are good on toms, but I dont think any better than the 604's, and they're bigger. I am an Audix D2 fan on toms, worth a look?
the Classic Beta52 Beta91 combo won't go far wrong, although do listen to the D6 if you haven't already.

However, onto your actual question. the 4040's are good, however, if you don't need a brand name on these mics, I constantly have great results with thomanns em800's. They're cheap as chips but they're great quality, and I'd take them at twice the price, or more.

As for suggesting a D112 for kick drum, I'm really not entirely sure which version of the D112 you've been listening to, but not one that I have that is for sure. It's also, certainly not the right sort of mic to be used in combo with a 91.

+1 for the SE electronics mics. awesome bits of kit! I had great results from an SE3 pair

Another +1 for small diaphram condensors in general and the SE series (even the SE1A is good) in particular. Cheap as chips and they sound really nice on overheads.

As for the kick, I know you weren't asking but....

My D202 which has done sterling service in this area for longer than some of you have been alive is showing it's age and needs to be put out to pasture. In the past few days, acting on advice, I auditioned the Audix D6 and was absolutely blown away by the quality on kick. I heartily recommend it to everyone and suggest an audition if you can arrange one before you spend your money.

Bob

Without wanting to do a "me too", the SE1a's have always proved to be a good mic for overheads, and I've made some pretty nice stereo recordings with them too.

In a similair price bracket, with a similair spec, is the Beyer MCE530. I can never seem to find many people's thoughts on these, but they look nice and compact (shorter than the SE's) and on paper, look pretty similair. I also like the look of the stereo mounting they come with if you buy from thomann. Anybody ever used them and got any thoughts?

I have used C1000's overhead before (though don't own any myself) and to be honest, in the setting it was in (live rock band on a theatre stage) they sounded pretty ok. The major drawback is simply their size. A pair weigh too much to put on a standard mic stand on a stereo bar and will pull it over (or onto the drummer's head mid-gig).

Tried to pm you but couldn't send dynamic pages... check out the deals on red5 mics, they perform incredibly well for the frankly silly price and might just get you through till you can save some more money for the named mics you want www.red5audio.com

I had some Oktavia MK 319 large diaphragm mics as overheads for a one-off with local production. Gave them a whirl and was really pleasantly surprised, sounded great in the in ears I was mixing. I was led to believe they were cheap but how cheap I don't know. For reference we'd been using 414s for overheads for all the other shows.

I've a couple of 319s that I tend to use for female vocals in the studio, but there are two reasons why I would not use them on overheads.

1. They are too warm sounding and although do a passable job, they accentuate the toms too much, and

2. They are far too heavy. Expecting a boom arm to keep one level when extended is asking a lot. None of my K&M stands are up to the task. A choral stand with counterbalance is needed.

My vote is for two of the pencil style models mentioned above, and from choice, a couple of 451s.

If the plan is to buy two 414s, I'd move those to the drums and pick something else for the guitar cabs - never found 414s really suitable for miking up amps myself.

I would 2nd paul on this. The 414's are used on guitars in the studio as an ambiance or 'room' mic to help create a 'bigger' sound. I wouldn't use them for live on Guitars. Get an SM57 or Beta 57 for this type of job, or another other 'classic' dynamic models for that reason.

While I've never had the pleasure of using a 414 on guitar, recording or otherwise, recently I have found myself choosing cheap large diaphragm condensers on guitar cabs recording modern rock and metal. I find the extended high end response over a 57 really helps when you are aiming for that modern crisp distortion tone. I've certainly seen plenty of people use 414s or other large diaphragm mics on guitar amps live and certainly think it's not a particularly out there suggestion and has advantages over a 57.

On Point 1: This wasn't my experience with them-although I tend to think placement and playing style would have more to do with what ended up being foremost in the mic channel.

On point 2: Seemed ok on the standard K&M boom arms I used-no drooping.

For the most part though most of the mics mentioned in this thread would get you where you're going with careful placement and a bit of EQ. Although I personally wouldn't have a C1000 anywhere near a stage if I had a choice.

414s on guitar cabs is a bit unusual-like paulears says move them up to overheads and then try out the e906, e606, SM57, Beta 57a to find what you like. For my money if I was starting a rental company I'd be buyng a lot of Beta 57a-great utility mic.

I think the most important thing you can do is to actually hear the mics for yourself before you splash the cash. My opinion, and anyone else's, is just that. What matters is what you think of the mics (or what the engineers you supply think of the mics if you're in the business of satisfying riders).

We often use a pair of Shure KSM27's for overheads. These are not multi-pattern like the 414's but, being large diaphragm, give a lovely sound reproduction. Round about £500 for a pair so may still be a bit over your budget.

We also use these for choirs, percussion and even live on guitar cabs with great results. Worth a look.

Steve

Just a thought...

My first choice would still be a small diaphram condensor like the SE (or, if you can afford them, AKG451s) but if you're set on a large diaphram mic, a couple of years back I was given two MXL990s mics for overheads and they didn't sound half bad. They're basically a 990 but with a 10dB pad switch and a 150kHz high pass filter, both of which were useful for miking drums. Cheap as chips as I recall--something like £70 each.

Bob

If the budget it tight (or you are after simplicity) why not buy one decent overhead (you can buy another later).

I've played some really big venues with just bass drum, snare and overhead. It all fell together better with a mic on the hats, but live there is so much spill that the less mics you have on stage the lower the risk of feedback. The advantage of this set up is that it is really quick and easy.

Depending upon the size of the kit, the cymbal sounds can be a bit lopsided if you don't position the overhead right, but we got some really great sounds using this set up. I also know that it is a set up favoured by a number of producers for studio recordings as well - I guess it was a reaction against that 80's drum sound where every drum had a mic, and every mic was tightly gated. This ignored the fact that the rattles from the kit actually contributes something to the sound of the kit.

Regards

WAL

Hi,

I'm new to this forum but I couldn't help lending you, not my advice, but what is my experience.
In my company we've been using the Beyerdynamic Stereo Set Kit of MCE530 microphones very succesfully on drum overheads.
But I don't know the price for them in your country,
They do perform really well, and you save one mic boom because the kit includes the k&m stereo set accessories. It also has good feedback rejection wich is helpfull for live applications.

But the best thing is allways to go for the best sounding mic you can afford, which isn't really an advice just common sense

Good luck.

Rui

Isn't that otherwise known as a mute switch </pedant>

They are available from Thomann and studiospares, though I believe that the Thomann one is the only one with the nifty stereo clip (I.e. not a stereo bar, but a combined 2 mic clip).
Have you used them for anything else? I was looking at getting a pair but they need to multitask - stage float mics, some low end ambient recording and perhaps close micing of strings and woodwind, as well as drum overheads.

Any thoughts?

I've used a pair of Behringer C 2's and there very good and very cheap I would say there worth buying a pair anyway good on hi hats and rides

Actually I'd second the Behringer C 2s. I can't believe how little they cost, and they perform like a 'proper' pair of mics. I'd use them over something like C1000s any day, although the noise shelf is quite high, but that's never been an issue when it comes to drums.

They're obviously no way in the same class as something like the C414, but they're not like most other budget mics (which are basically unusable for most applications), but they punch way above their price. Worth getting as a 'spare' pair of mics anyways...

Another Vote for the C2s I have 8 and the Am-Dram group I do lighting for have another 6. I can't fault them and the fact that they are good for most things you can chuck at them is great.

Josh

My personal favourite for overheads is the Oktava MK012. They're Russian made, and can be bought as a matched pair for £130 each. Many reviews say they're all but indistinguishable from KM84/KM184. I've just found them so detailed and open - you can hear the differences between different types of crash, rather than just getting a big splashy mush. Work brilliantly on acoustic guitar choirs, orchestral strings etc too. I have five now and they're among my most cherished mics.

My 2p worth for kick - Audix D6. Usually very little eq required. Fat sound, perfect!

Pete.

Hi,

Other uses include micing acustic guitars (the portuguese Fado guitar and spanish Flamenco guitar), flutes, violins and we've used it once as a pair for the micing of an orchestra. They were setup behind the conductor at ear height. Worked just fine. They also have the MCE930 stereo kit but those are way more sensitive. Great for recordings but a real pain in live conditions. We've used it once to mic a flute performer who has the habit of waving the thing all over and the result was great in terms of capture,but it was murder on the monitor eq setting for his position!!

Er, no. A high-pass filter is a filter that passes high frequencies well, but attenuates (reduces the amplitude of) frequencies lower than the cutoff frequency. The actual amount of attenuation for each frequency varies from filter to filter. It is sometimes called a "low-cut filter" and that's what you may be thinking of.

Ooops...just noticed the stray "k" that must have dropped off my 'angaroo and into my post. Funny how one letter can change everything--I plead the time difference which gives me permanent jet lag if I try to be up and about to talk to people in the UK!

Bob

We have a lot of these at work, and they do work well on overheads, but I hate them for hi-hat. I definitely wouldn't consider them to be in the same league as KM184s though.

Thank you all for your many suggestions, they've been most helpful.
However I'm now in a new dilemma. Large or small diaphragm? Particularly in the area of drum overheads.
Having quickly read through a few notes on the differences/pros and cons for each, I am still none the wiser.
The mic would have to be multi-purpose at the end of the day, not just for overheads.

Hmmm...probably depends a bit on the range of other duties you want the mics to do and also whether or not you already have at least one, preferably two LDCs.

For me, one or two LDCs are enough with SDCs being more useful as "utility" mics. I use the small mics on quite a few instruments (strings, brass, woodwind, in a piano) and also as a coincident pair for a lot of stereo recording. Put it this way, ignoring dynamics, my mic kit has 2-3 times as many small diaphram as large.

Bob

Small diaphragm is my suggestion. If your first choice is for drum overheads, then their main purpose is to pickup the high frequency information, cymbals & sense of stereo spread. Low frequency response (the thump) on the drums will come from the close miking which you've already got covered.

I have the Behringer C2's as others mentioned and they're great in this role, especially as drum mics can have a very short life span with the high potential for them to be hit by flailing drummers.

I have also used them succesfully on classical & spanish guitar, flute & violin, so they're reasonably versatile & great value for money. Lifespan is yet to be an issue for me, and they've paid for themselves with a single use.
They're almost a disposable microphone for the price !!!

They're actually rather amazing given the price. I paid £40 for my pair (bought off a friend who paid £36 for them ) and they give great results with most things. I've used them on an acoustic guitar before (stereo mic'd) and apart from the background noise, they were fantastic.

I think I'll definately be adding a pair or two of C2's to my list! Im still undecided about the Large/Small bit though.