First a bit of background...
This is a small (150 seat), amateur/volunteer-run theatre. We have a reasonable level of experience, but no professional-level expertise - and we don't have loads of money!

As the theatre is fairly small, we don't use sound reinforcement except in musicals where it helps the singers a lot. (Why do bands only have a dynamic range of f to fff!)
We have 6 MiPro radio mics which we've used for the last couple of years. These have standard lapel mics which are OK, but there is the inevitable problem of level changes as the singers wave their heads around.
To improve things, would the team recommend using the existing mic capsules taped to the head (as someone suggested to us), or something like the CPC MP33906 headsets - they seem to work OK with the bodypacks and are reasonably affordable?

2nd question is about giving a bit of a lift to the non-mic'ed chorus. Would boundary mics be a solution here? Stage is 6m deep and just under 7m wide. Most people here seem to like the PCC160, but that's a bit expensive for us - any cheaper suggestions? (They won't have a heard life!)

Thanks in advance

Steve

Again CPC is the place to go for these.

Specifically This Boundary Microphone It uses Phnatom Power so it doesn't need any batteries which most of the others do. It also comes with a 4M lead terminating in an XLR.

Edit to add: The headset Microphones from CPC are brilliant but I would reccommend the Adjustable type seen here.

Josh

Thanks - Do you think 2 of those would be enough for a 6m x 6m stage?

Steve

I'd wait for some 2nd opinions before buying anything but I think that, for a theatre that hasn't had any chorus reinforcement up until now, 2 would be perfect.

Josh

Just out of interest where would these be mounted please?

John Denim.

The headsets, over the actors ears and around to their mouths.

The Boundaries would be mounted on the floor at the front of the stage.

Josh

As you can tell I have no experience with boundary mics!

Would it depend on where the FOH cabs are situated?


John Denim.

I think that the mic Joshua linked to has been replaced with this one.

It's the same mic. I just linked to the More Information page.

Josh

The CPC boundary mics are good. There are also other decent ones around - I have some audio-technica ones. But when it comes to front-of-stage use, none is in the same league as the PCC160. IMHO.

I've used both - but not done a side-by-side comparison. has anybody done one?

A concurrent post has been automatically merged from this point on.


The wiki is your friend...

I bow to wiki!

John Denim.

On our stage, the main FoH speakers are mounted high on the proscenium arch - 1 each side.
The stage apron sicks out past this, although only by a metre. This means that boundary mics on the stage edge would actually be about a couple of feet in front of the speakers - although the speakers will be 3 or 4m above them.
Is this likely to be a problem?
(Yes, I can try it, but worth asking too!)

Steve

I'll second the PCC-160 suggestion. They are lovely pieces of kit, they will also take a fair bit of being tap danced on.

Keep your eyes open on ebay. I've just got one for £90 delivered to my door from the US. You won't find many on sale at the minute in the UK, I believe due to ROHSS regulations, though if anybody has any, I'm on the lookout for another one! I might point out that mine from America hasn't actually arrived yet, but I know it has left the US!

Decent hanging mics can also be your friend, but I'd really save up and go for a hypercardiod one (but not a shotgun!) like the AKG ck33 with the hanging module.

Alternatively, a couple of small diaphragm "float mics" can be very effective on small stands.

There's a guy with 29 to sell on eBay in the US, but sadly only offering shipping within the US
http://tinyurl.com/5obadr

Steve

I've heard very good things on this forum about the PCC 160 boundary mics, and indeed have worked with many sound ops who use them as a matter of course. on a 5m x 5m stage would you say they are more advantageous than an equivalent priced rifle mic? In fact, when you come right down to it, in terms of pick up and sound quality would you opt for rifles or boundaries?

BVoundaries over rifles any day. Rifles just aren't up to the job. Their pickup pattern is too tight (unless you have a lot of them covering the whole stage) and really it isn't what they are designed for.

PCC-160's are good if you can get them, but the only price I can find at the minute if £259 which seems very steep. There aren't many around due to ROHSS regulations.

Out of interest, how much would people be looking to pay second hand for a PCC-160?

Hanging overheads might be a better way to go, or small diaphragm condensers out front and up high.

You can get them from B&H Video in the states (linky) for $305, which is about £160, plus a bit of postage, they are happy to ship internationally, plus (if you are unlucky) VAT when it arrives. 'Tis where I got the ones I use from, though they were a couple of dozen bucks less back then

Then you are on their mailing list and get a couple of copies of their half inch thick catalogue on in your mailbox every now and again...

Edited to note that for a choir I have used a pair of short shots as a crossed pair, which worked surprisingly well

I regularly use the Audio-Technica AT835b for all sorts of applications. For shows I use one either side of the hall about 4m from the front of the stage so they pick up a little ambient noise but mainly the music/speech. They handle this very well IMO as long as the actors are making some noise and not whispering, much better than any suspended mics I've tried. I also use them filming and recording interviews outside and I once ended up using one to close mic an acoustic guitar, I was very impressed.

The AT835b has now been replaced by the AT8035 which has a better low end frequency response, these retail at around £170.

Just my 5p (inflation you know )

Hmm, This is something that has been in my mind for a while, I really need to get a few decent boundaries, But don't exactly have huge cash to play with.

The CPC ones seem like a good option to me anyways.

Does anyone else have any comments on these - Where have Paul & Rob been?

Alan

Our school has a pair of PCC160s.

The stage (30ft x 15 x15 or thereabouts) has a six-foot apron and originally the speakers we had were mounted midway up the proscenium wall. Gain-before-feedback was about zero. Now the speakers are on the ceiling ten feet in front of the stage and GBF is a little higher, but not much. We tried using them for choral scenes in Annie but gave up. Mind you we had a massive adult live band right in front of the stage which didn't really help the cause.

They work very well BluTac'd to a lectern, though, and are now my mic of choice for the Head's addresses to parents - a more critical use in a school. I'll persevere with experiments to use them for drama but I'm not hopeful.

EDIT: I should have mentioned that in Annie I fed them through individual Graphic EQs and Feedback Destroyers.

The only real solution here is to get microphones near to the group singing. Any microphones that pick up an area of sound ( I.e Boundary or Shotguns) will also pickup any music, either band or backing tracks. If the level of the music into the microphone is louder than your singers then you'll be boosting the music, and actually making the situation worse !

What I do for a lot of shows is have a group (The REAL chorus) singing offstage into a microphone (or more than one if they're a large group), then regardless of where a group of 'singers' is on stage the real sound is from a stationary group of singers. You then have real control of chorus balance & quality, without the music spill issues.

Slightly OT but have Crown changed the design of these to conform with RoHS. I'm sure Canford stopped selling them due to this, but they now list them on their site as conforming to RoHS.

Back on topic, I would definitely keep an eye out for a couple of second hand PCC-160's. Normally available for around £80 - £100 and worth every penny for this application IMHO.

Damon

We use 3 PCC160's and 3 AKG C568B's to cover our 42' x 35' (Approx 13m x 10.5m) stage and they both work beautifully. With the feedback eliminator built into our Driverack 4800, I can pump the C568B's up to +5dBu and they are so loud. They can easily pick up my voice when I'm standing in the audience 50ft (15m) away, it's crazy. They sound very good too, very clean with very little gain. They run on Phantom Power anywhere from 9 - 52v.

2 of the 3 here!

How many PCC-160's do we reckon are needed to mic up a stage? I'm talking a reasonable width town hall stage here. I've seen people use 2 before. Is 3 a better idea?

Reason for my asking - I've just received 1 in the post and have found a source of another 2 from the US. They are cheaper than over here and if I buy 2 I can combine shipping, but of course there's the extra price of the second mic. I'm just debating whether it's worth it and if 3 will do a markedly improved job than 2?

We use 3 because we have a huge stage...I usually guesstimate 1 PCC-160 will cover about 4m width. It also gives us a better stereo image with a Left Center and Right because of the distance. If your stage is smaller than ours then 2 should be fine!

I tend to go with three, given the choice. Mainly because having one centre stage is useful and then you need one either side to cover the rest of the stage. With only two, its more difficult to pick up that vital speech that's always delivered DSC.

I use both the Crowns PCC160s and the AT Rifles, it depends on the actual venue ie stage height, speaker positiona and stage size, before I choose what mic to use!

but 80% of the time its the Crowns and it 99% of the 3 mics!

The other thing to remember is that no-one has inveneted a mic that will pick up the chorus but not the principals at the same time. So although float mics will make the ensemble louder, they won't change the balance between chorus and principals. In a small venue it's often better to use a small orchestra and then mic the stage generally without using radios thus keeping the balance of principals to chorus rather than micing both with the floats and then the principals more with the radios.

The same applies, of course, if your mics are picking up the orchestra as well as the singers (as pointed out by Albatros), hence the reason for rifle mics as they avoid the band more.

Thanks for the above folks. I'm now the owner of 3 x PCC-160's. The one I've already got has performed very well so far in trials, so we'll see how a full compliment behaves.

Chris