Hi,

Just a quick question, saw the Lion King on Saturday night, really good show. Had a peek at the sound desk but saw three sounds desks! I can understand two, one for backup. But three? Anyone know why or has worked on this show? Just interested...
Ollie

2 Engineers, One Doing Mics Etc & One looking after music maybe.

Otherwise could be a monitor or recording desk, But I could be wrong

And yes the third is more than likely spare.

Ah thanks. Yeah makes sense. I thought monitor desk but then though that would be off stage.
Thanks for reply!

more than likely three desks interlinked because of how many outputs they have coming from stage.... the chances of them having a spare is very unlikely I know the head of sound on grease and if the desk goes down on there he can still run the show and the cues from the computer which has a backup

Actually, its most likely one sound desk with several sidecars.

Sidecars are just input wings and don't have a master section like a normal desk. They have outputs for all outputs/groups/auxes, which input to a compatible desk. Often you'll have the band on one, then mics playback and masters on the main desk; with an engineer to each sidecar.

It is likely that you saw a Cadac, probably J Type, with several sidecars.

Jon -
yep, I saw the word Cadac on the computer screen.

I couldn't say for sure, obviously, but I'm guessing he probably has something like the Vi series or similar where the desk is simply a control interface for a mix engine in a rack, of which there will be a backup. Whole different kettle of fish to analogue backup consoles.

did u just say it may be a soundcraft?

If you would care to read my post, I said it may be something similar to the soundcraft Vi series where a console simply controls a mix engine. Please don't mock me

I would have thought they would have used a digital desk and I believe the cadac J type to be analogue - especially if it was linked into computers and such although these could only be for playback of sounds. I only say this becuase usually in the west end I see the individual levels of each desk channel on the computer screens (which I believe would more than likely mean it to be a digital desk although it would be possible with analogue), but then maybe that just happens to be on the shows I have seen!

But isn't the Cadac the only fully automated analogue desk? Surely then, a computer linked to the desk's internal automation engine would make sense.

Just a thought.

Lion King on an analogue Cadac J Type with 3 frames, self-powered meyer pa. Grease on a digital Digico D5T12 with Martin/D&B pa.

anyone like a pic... or 2?

(rubbish phone quality)




just thought it would be worth adding.

Yep, Mr Si is right, Cadacs are fully automated analogue desks, with control software run from a pc.

Matt Mckenzie has also written some control software that talks to Cadac desks as well as midi devices like samplers.

Nope, there is the Gamble DCX, a digitally controlled, analogue mixer.

Hi Guys.
With the Lion King J-Types some shows vary round the world but the basic design is the same everywhere.
Yes it's a single desk split into 3 parts. Cadac is unique in having balanced internal busses, so if you need a big desk with lots of inputs you can just keep adding side frames. The first Lion King on Broadway, Tony Meola had the frames stacked one above the other like on a keyboard stand. Some of the older shows use our original automation called CGC which ran on DOS, but for Steve Kennedy and John Shivers, on later versions of the show we translated to SAM (sound automation manager) on Windows ™. The computers you saw manage the automation on the desk which controls the desk routing, muting, DC master assignments, moving faders, and sends MIDI messages for triggering sound effects.
I love the idea of every show having a "spare" desk ... sadly that would be pretty unusual with a Cadac anyway. I did read somewhere on another forum (so it must be true) that the rental companies carry hundreds of spares for Cadacs. In reality the modules on the desks are hot swappable, so if a channel or a part does go down, you don't end up with a lump of non responsive plastic, or need to replace the entire desk. J-Types in theatres and on tour carry a spares kit with a few spare modules and faders, which makes perfect sense, and the desks do need looking after. You wouldn't expect a car to run 8 races a week for 20 odd years without a service. Our digital desk has been designed around these very familiar J-Type concepts because when something does go wrong (and it will whatever brand you use) we try make it as easy as possible for the show to go on.
Any more questions please drop me a line at the Cadac office. (Yes we're still here.)
Thanks
Mark

well that throws out my theory of 2 desks for the show, plus the in-house desk at the side unused.

all I can say from theose photos is

I want...I want....I want.

although Id settle for an LS9

Nah, skip the LS9 and go for the Cadac. Just look at some of the EXPANSION MODULES you can get--you'll never know how you lived without them!

Bob

(with apologies to Mark at Cadac and Kai Harada)

Bobbsy The DVD idea is amazing

we did try the toast module,but it made the sound a bit too warm.

...and has everyone forgotten the Soundcraft Broadway? Destined (at one time) to replace Cadacs with a small-footprint control surface, remote (all-analogue, but totally digitally-controlled) audio racks under the stage. It was originally supposed to appear in the West End but after months of trying it was quietly replaced - with a Cadac. There are still a handful out there, though whether they are still used as mixers or have been reclassified as industrial toasters, I know not.

One of the odd ironies of theatre was that the whole FOH footprint thing was dismissed by at least one producer as a red herring. One of the arguments for digital desks was to reduce the number of seats taken out by the mix position at the back of the stalls. Fair enough, he said, but if I was regularly filling those crappy seats, the theatre would be so full I wouldn't worry about a few extras. And if the theatre wasn't full, as far as he was concerned, sound could have the whole back row and the balcony too!

I'm guessing that the producer you mention doesn't have any successful shows. Every producer I have worked with in the last 4 years has fought to get back every seat they can. With Orchestra level seats at $150 and up, 1 seat is $1200/week. Every extra seat sound uses up is like an additional $1200/wk on the equipment rental. Producers always hope their show will be successful, so they look at every seat as $60,000/year.

Mac

Certainly mackerr's experience mirrors mine. The mix position tends to be in the expensive seats and, at least on a popular and successful musical, the auditorium is completely sold out months in advance. This makes every seat taken by the mix position real money in the order mac is talking about.

Bob

Thats the difference between the Lion King and many most of the shows I do. Generally the space I occupy doesn't compete for punters because there are always lots of unsold seats, often including a balcony! Another group where sellouts are almost the norm the issue is critical, because of the desire to sell every seat, not just for the financial aspect, but on a show with a fixed length run its not nice to have to deprive folks of the show experience.

When you move from amateurville to professionalville is where it gets really critical. For the big shows, because of the risky nature of big theatre, every cent is important; producers dont always get the big pay day. Not every show goes the way of the Lion King; shirts can and are lost in theatre...