Hi All, I`m new so sorry if I`ve missed a thread already dealing with this. I have at present 2 mackie 1530z. I think there pretty good but heavy and one is in the shop being repaired at the moment Just in warranty! I`ve looked at Lucas Max gear, but found the sound a little over engineered, a little fake maybe? What would anyone suggest as an upgrade from the Mackies. BUdget of say £3000. Fohhn, Lucas Max, Jbl . . . . I`m a Singer and pianist doing swing but also disco. Looking for best quality that won`t break my back!!! Are the Lucas elias better sound than the MAX?
thanks.

You don't mention one way or the other but the specific systems you mention are generally thought of as powered systems.

If on the other hand you don't mind an unpowered system then take a look at the Turbosound TXD Range of boxes. these are great quality but without breaking the bank. A pair of 12's and a pair of 15 or 18 inch subs depending on how big you want to go and a couple of amps and a crossover (have a look at the QSC PLX2 range or Crown XTI range (built in DSP).

This, whilst more boxes, keeps the individual box weight down and gives yo much more flexibility. Smaller shows you can take in just the tops. Larger ones the subs and tops. And you can get the tops on poles, high up point them where you want. (something you can't do with your curren setup).

With the XTI amps You can also use 1 amp per side in 2 separate racks to minimise speaker cable run, and can run a mono system should an amp fail and have to be returned (3 year warranty).


2 tops 2 subs 2 amps, some cabling, poles and a flightcase or 2 should come in on budget.

There are of course, MANY MANY more options.


Rob



There are also powered versions of the 12inch top and 18inch sub but I don't currently have a price list inluding these, they may or may not come within budget. But they'd be a recommendation if so.

You dont state what size you need, are your mackies the right sie/power for what you doing at the moment? You could also look at a pair of second hand RCF TT+ cabs, although these may seem te same sort of weight, you need to look at the spl's. The single 15" rcf TT cab puts out the same spl as the mackies (136db Peak) however the RCF Weighs 26.8kg as opposed to the mackies 50kg! However you will pay for it, the TT25 comes in at £1900 per cabs, and the mackies £800. If you can afford the extra for the TT's then it is definatly worth it, or as I say see what you can find seod hand. They are some of the most amazing cabs I have every herd, the volume and quality for the size of the cab is nothing but amazing!

Rob, surly you carnt get a turbosound rig with a pair of crown XTI amps for under £3k? The amps will come to £1500-£1800 alone? Do you have some price lists? If you can then thats a very nice system, infact you have rather intregued me!

Rich

With the 15 inch subs. Just about. the poles/speaker leads/flightcases might just take it over budget. but whats that. £100?

with the 18's you'd need another £150 or so.

the tops are 20kg a box the 15 subs 25 an the 18 subs 28

Not heavy at all.

On paper not as loud, but the ability to get the tops above peoples heads, separate subs so as not to muddy your mids up, and amps with headroom makes the figures on paper a little deceiving.

In which case this may be a much more versitile system, as rob says, because you can adapt it to each event, and with the system being split, it makes each component lighter.


Rich

there was someone on ebay selling new eaw jfx590's for around £1300 a pair from memory (think it was aa systems)
if they still have some I don't think you will beat these if you want the best!

To stick with that, I saw some sb650 for about £800 a pair (used) somewhere, I'll have to look it up. they're a 2x15 sub so a bit bulky.

The Ideal compact EAW Sub is the LA400.

WOW info overload! I`m a total PA novice. Erm I think I want to stick with powered equipment because it`s a simple set up However if I`m paying through the nose for that kind of technology I`d consider passive as well! It`s all got to fit in the back of my Audi as well at present, though I am thinking of getting a van!
Is the powered stuff less natural in sound? My chief aims are quality of sound, warmth and decent power levels to do rooms with up to 350 people. How do you guys rate the Mackies I`ve already got? Second hand stuff sounds like a smart move but I`ll have to get informed help . . .

I owned a pair of Mackie SR1530's until recently and was quite pleased withem although they are quite bulky and one of them needed a visit to the repairers (luckily under warranty as I was told it was close to an uneconomical repair!).I've since changed to EAW and have to say that the clarity of the EAW's blows the Mackies away but then they do list at approx double the price so you get what you pay for I suppose.
I also get very little feedback with the EAW's by comparison.

Thanks whirlwind. Do you think they have a dodgy build quality then, as mine have had a fault more than once?! Are the Eaw powered? Do you know anywhere stocking them in the north west? Sound control sell some JBL`s that are supposed to be way better than the Mack`s at half the weight but twice the cost, any thoughts?

would you consider a powered mixer?

still a simple setup, but the boxes are still lighter, and as most people rack the amp under a mixer anyway...

for powerd boxes, keep clear of HK if your doing it by yourself, we have a HK rig at work, and whilst its plenty powerful enough sounds OK, it weighs a TON!!! Its a 2 man job to put them on stands

from what I was told there was a known fault on the 1530's.I always thought that I could smell like a sulphur/burnina discontinued model.g smell from one of mine ever since it was delivered but I passed it off as "just me" as it seemed to work fine.I think the build quality on most things is going downhill nowdays..I think China has a lot to answer for!
Then one day I switched it on and it had died.To be fair to Mackie they did repair it with no problems under the warranty which was a good job as the repairer siad it would cost almost as much as the speaker was worth to fix it.
With regards to the EAW's I bought some jfx290's from ebay for £1400 (or something around that I can't quite rememeber).they are top quality passive speakers that from what I researched normally sell for around £2300 a pair although they are now a discontinued model.If you search ewa on ebay you'll see aa systems and contact them and see what they have.

I have a pair of Mackie 1530s (not the Z model) that we use for the band. We've had them 2 years now and apart from the odd blown fuse they've been fine. When I was looking to buy a PA, research on the web seemed to indicate that the Mackies were highly reliable so I'm surprised to hear about problems.

I paid 949ukp for the pair, brand new from Soundcontrol in London and that was delivered. The next nearest contender was the RCF 4PRO 6001-A which is a nearly identical design (same weight) but using RCF drivers of course (as the Mackies used to.....) but was over twice the price. The RCF is also capable of a higher SPL if I remember correctly.

The Mackies have a very American "all tits and bums" sound (which I do eq out to some degree). I really like them but its good to remember their limitations.

The RCF might be a way forward unless you're looking to play to larger audiences, a very good sounding unit. KV2 Audio's offshoot company KXAudio do a budget range of powered speakers and if they are anything like the ES/EX series they'll be impressive.

I'm with you on the "powered speaker" front, if you're diy it save so much time.

For the record if I "upgraded" it would be to an HK Actor DX or the KV2 ES systems (second hand) but then we are a rock band !!

The powered vs unpowered debate will never come to any conclusion as there simply isn't one. There are good and bad points to each.

Powered systems carry less boxes and as such have less cabling with them. They do tend to make the boxes heavier, sometimes significantly, and if an amp goes down you lose the box.
Unpowered speakers have the hassle of wiring amps up and crossover networks (although the xti's or similar makes this somewhat easier) but are generally more flexible, you can get larger amps for headroom where as powered boxes often have amps rated at the rms level.

There is an argument that amps in cabs are designed to do exactly what they're there for so are therefore better. An amp is an amp. There are good and bad, and bigger and smaller.

I like your posts Rob, full of top info always to the point !

Right! Well I think what I`ll do is live with the Mackies for another 12 months and in the mean time get to grips with other options! The powered desk is interesting to me I`m thinking of going to Adlib Audio and getting something custom built. On a slightly different tack, my desk at the mo is a YAMAHA MG12/4 with effects, does anyone know how I`d get the right reverb out of it? Or should I buy seperate? I`m not sure how good it is, but I know I`ve probably got it set wrong, the manual is pretty useless to me! I`m singing Michael Buble style stuff . . .anytakers for the reverb I should have?

thanks for the ideas so far!

www.ChrisGaskell.info

Not a fan of powered desks. Each to their own of course.

You'll often find the amps in them are very small. There are very few crossover features with them, so you'd rely on passive crossovers in the speakers which limits your options further, and wastes valuable power (power you often don't have with them being underpowered). The one thing goes you lose the lot element stands with this and losing the desk from the setup is about as bad as it gets.

It does however save on the number of boxes. But leaves you in a "long speaker lead" scenario again adding to big thick cable runs, costly, and to a much lower extent in this case, loss through cable length.

It also means that if ever you wanted to hire in a sound engineer to do a larger awkward venue that your PA would normally be capable of. Instead of hiring and engineer for their going rate and a multicore for £10 or £15 for them to mix out front. The desk HAS to go on the stage or next to it to avoid SILLY length cables.

Powered desks serve a purpose, they must do, or they wouldn't make them. But I don't think they are what you require. It's also unlikely you'll match the quality of the XTI range with an amp built into a desk, especially not one coming in on budget aswell.

Consider all the options. Have a listen to alsorts, don't just buy on our suggestions, you must hear for yourself. See if you can hire something similar for a night, yes it costs money, but £50 here and £50 there to find out a system is no good for you is better than spending £3000 on it to find this out.
Also, look at your current speakers. What are they worth at the moment? Will they be worth the same in 12 months? Will they have broken again in 12 months and cost you another £400 to fix?



Rob

Right.

If you are not definatly going for a van then you really need to be looking for a more compact system, more than likely powerd, as this cuts down n having to carry an amp rack around with you. I personaly am becoming more of a fan of powerd now, I find it so much simpler and easier than a passive system. However this isnt to say there isnt a place for both types of systems, and that powerd systems are always easier, I just find for my aplication there better. There are also the new yamaha install speakers that are ment to compeat with the TT+ range and, the 15" cabs do put out the same spl as each other, however I have no idea of price, infact they may not even be powerd? Sorry im being pretty useless today, kind of thinking out loud! But anyway if your trying to fit anything in a car I would definatly be looking at the tt+ range or similar. They are VERY good cabs, where are you based in the uk?

Rich

I`m based in the Northwest! Trying stuff definitely sounds like a plan.

Were exactly in the northwest, Stage electrics tyneside have the TT+ 12" tops and the 18" bins in the hire stock, it makes one hell of a system. We set up 1 12" cab at the back off the warehouse on a stand and stood at the bottom of the car park with the roller shutter door open and it still sounded like we were stood infront of it. Anway if you can get to newcastle, or affor the little bit extra cash for us to deliver to you then its worth a shot, you could have a look and see if theres anyone more local hireing the TT range.

Rich

I`m in Wigan, Lancs so not round the corner from Newcastle! Are these TT 12" and 18" powered? Do you know approx dimensions? And any idea of costing? Thanks for your time!

Hi, yes there both powerd. Size and weight wise, after a bit of digging I have found the brochure and the weight for the 12"(TT22A) is 23.2kg and the 18" subs (TTS18-A) is 48kg, however a few castors will sort that out, well until you encounter stairs. And size wise the TT22A is 600x400x400mm and the TTS18A is 520x700x860. However it is not cheap, your probably looking at £6.5 k for this system, however this will be MASSIVLEY louder than the cabs you have at the moment. You should be ok with a 8" top and 12" subs to be honest, your looking at about £5k for this system maby slightly less if you buy it as a full system , you might be able to get a bit of discount, however I will get you some up to date prices tomorow at work. However remeber the 15" tops alone are very close to your mackies at the moment, and they weight half the price. Remember that the TT stands for Touring and Theatre, these are serious bits of kit, designed for touring and genrally high demanding aplications.

I shal get back to you tomorow with some more accurate prices.
Rich

EDIT: Its worth mentioning that the 8" tops +12" sub system comes to 3.5kw rms!

Is there a quoted max SPL (continuous/peak) ?

Not for the full system, but the top puts out 128db max spl and the 12" subs putting out 131db max spl. To give you some comparison the hk lucas performers tops put out 124db max spl, and the 15" sub puts out 126db max spl. So the TT 12" sub puts out 5 more db from a smaller driver!

Rich

The fact it has an amplifier twice the size contributes to why it outputs more. The box designs are probably similar efficiency. Just a higher power handling on the RCF box, or maybe a similar power handling but just a bigger amp means more SPL>

That said, there is clearly no comparison between the 2 systems. However, that fact includes the price.

This system would easily go in a car. The 8 inch tops in the ashtray whilst the subs would go in the glove box.

Right! So if I got 2 TT22A and maybe 1 bass bin that would be a great sound?? I`m pretty pleased with my Mackies overall sound, though as someone mentioned they can get lost in the crowd a bit as they`re floor level! I`ve just priced up TT`s at £1499 each, if I got those would I need an equally expensive SUB or could I get a Thomann special just for added kick? Whichever way it seems I need to hear these RCF`s and check out how they sound!

If your going down the amplifier route check out the HZ sb600 subbass 22kilos easily portable also there z500 3way 500 watt tops

In the same way that there is no point buying a D&B C4 system and using Soundlab amps instead of the D&B ones. I you're buying good tops, buy good subs. It does work out expensive but the system is only as good as it's weakest link.

In answer to



NO!

Nor would it be with 2 subs, or 12, or 96 tops and 360 subs, It's what you put in and what you do with it that counts.......erm.......
If you can't use it properly you can get it sounding rather poor. Use it right and YES it will be a great sound.

Sure Rob, but what I meant was, for my size of venue would 1sub work with 2 tops? I totally agree you need to make it sound right and there I`m stuffed. I plug it all in and try to hit some of the right notes. That`s why I`ve got powered everything and a built in FX! I`m no sound technician, but would say 2 TT 8 or 12 cabs and 1 good sub be way better than the Mackies I currently wheel around the Northwest? I almost bought 2 Mackie tops and a Bin, but there was no warmth from the sound, Power yes, but warmth no that`s why I bought the 1530`s because of the mid and the vocal sound it gave me . . . .

Then I'd DEFINATELY try before you buy with the RCF's.

It could work with 1 sub, but I'd prefer 2. If you get to a small venue upstairs, and one is enough don't take the other up stairs.
If you had the 12 inch tops, you could do small rooms without the subs altogether.

Great thanks! I`ll search out a local supplier and get my ears around a set in different configurations. Thanks for your time.. . . . . ..

What about 24? Seriously though, You could use one sub, however I would be looking at a higher power sub, well a pair of 12" tops and a pair of 18" subs is c the matched system that RCF reccomend, so you could probably get away with the twin 18" sub. If you used 8" tops the single 18" would probably do it. There is no real correct answer, just guesses on personal prefference. You need to hear all of these configurations for yourself. However again thinking out loud it is very easy to get a nice sound frm a pair of 12" tops and a single 18" sub, so again I guess it depends on what exactly your trying to achive.

Rich

That's what we're here for.

Find a local supplier that has a demo system. Tell them you've heard good reports about it and want to try it out. You may be able to hire it for a weekend to do a couple of gigs with it, on the grounds that they'll scrap the hire charge if you buy the system afterwards.

Rob

Stage electrics definatly do this, im sure most other sound companys but I thought a subtle plug was needed there.

And as rob says, without doubt listen to waht your buying, especialy at this price range. The TT system blows me away, but you might hate it. Its a no brainer to have a demo first.

Rich

Cool thanks . .

Hi Guys, a friend of mine has recommended Ohm systems . . . 2 Bass bins and tops, powered I think about 3K power and apparently awesome!! I`m going for a listen in the next few weeks to find out costing and spec, any thoughts??

sounds like the TRS rig, an awesome piece of work!

Where are you getting these from? Im having problems stocking any company with a TRS system for sale

Cheers
Rich

My friend has access to the warehouse at Knutsford, Cheshire. I don`t know for definite what systems they have there, but as it`s the main OHM place I guess they would have what you need! I`ll try to get a contact number and let you know!
Chris

I just know a guy who bought one second hand, I think he got his from wigwam?

Hi all, I`ve been listening to some Turbosound TXP-151`s today active tops. I have a price of £637.50 each and £599 for a TXP-118 sub. Any thoughts on this system? They are plenty loud, and light!! 28kg and 32kg respectively. I would only get on sub as my volvo won`t hold 2. they also do a 12" top but the store didn`t have it in they are a bit cheaper, but nothing much.
The idea being at small venues to leave the Sub at home.

Hey

I have this system - 2x TXP151s and 2x TXP118s and I would recommend it to anyone who's after a system for music.
I think they sound good, the TXP151s have a really clear sound and are capable of a fairly strong bass in full-range mode. You could easily do a lot of rooms with just the tops and then add in the sub(s) for any slightly larger venues. The 118s are nice and punchy, but not quite up to the standard of the tops.
Only think I would say is that they're heavy to carry because the handles aren't in the best place.
PM me if you want more info - might be able to let you come and hear it if you're local. (bucks/berks)

As with any system - if you don't already use one - I'd highly recommend you get a 31-band equaliser for your system to help you get the best out of it.

HTH
Chris

How exactly do you use a 31 graphic eq?

Rich

As "minimalistically" as possible.


The ability to make up your own words comes after 1000 posts.



Rob

Haha Iv got a bit of waithing then.

It just struck me as a bit odd how he mentions that one piece of outboard gear will greatly improve the sound of a system.

I could understand if he said LMS but it was the fact its such a specific piece of gear which dosent really improve the sound of the system unless you use it wrong (Smiley faces spring to mind)

Rich

Just to add a small point,
I'd listen to the powered txd 12s as well as the 15s, with a sub under them you wont genreally need the extra low end exstension of the 15 inch driver

Well chaps I`ve listened to 2 rigs today!
1: Ev sx300 tops working through EV SBA 760 with high pass filter
2: and a Fohhn Xperience III

Both real contenders for me. The best vocal sounds by far and really warm, punchy bass.
The Fohhn is better but also approx double in price does anyone have thoughts on these 2 options?
Getting serious now, wallet is being prised slowly open!!!

The EV 18" sub would probably be a better choice if you get the sx 300's.

Without reading this entire topic again, can you remind me why you want active?
The Fohhn I have not heard, but judging by this website you could get
the RCF TT22A tops and TTS18A subs for around the same price.

John Denim.

Hi John, I don`t want active it`s just that with using an active sub I get a built in crossover saving me havingto carry too much kit!
I still haven`t heard the RCF gear yet but loved the FOhhn yesterday! The Ev I think is pretty special for the price I guess it`s the budget I`m prepared to stretch to.

I heard the RCF gear last week and it was excellent. However far too much money for me right now so I bought a pair of second hand Mackie Fussion 1800 subs (one powered, one passive) from Concert for a grand to go with my SR1530s and tbh I am blown away with the result. The 1800s give the whole PA a new lease of life. Mackie quote 139db max which is loud and boy are they loud! The weak point of the SR1530s was imo always the bass so the subs give the system a real boost. I've now spent 1949ukp on my speakers (2x1530s and the 1800s) and I'm very happy with the result for the money. Not RCF TT but a fraction of the cost.