The hall we use for our shows have recently taken away ALL the fire extuingshers from the building only leaving 2 fire hoses (water) and a little fire blanket in the kitchen. I did find one CO2 extunigher theyve missed outside the main switch room but that was probably because they couldnt get past the 2 locked doors to find it, likewise the users of the hall would have the same issue!

I comfrounted them as I was concerned that this was a dangerous thing to do, let along PROBABLY illegal. their reply was that the didnt want non-competent people trying to tackle fires!

so to me that reads, if one is trapped somwhere rahter than them to tackle the fire with their nearest extinguisher to get themselves out they just have to burn instead?

it seems crazy to me, I've never been into a building since and not seen any fire extuingighers. please can you comment, let me know if this is allowed and if anyone else has come across this same thing.

thanks

It seems strange to me that the fire extinguishers have been removed and that hose reels remains. It is normally the other way round. Ask to see the buildings Fire Risk Assesment, than all should be revealed why they have done what they have done.

In my view a fire extinguisher is provided to knock out small fires or to assist escape, not for fighting major fires.

Fire control has moved from a "Follow these regs from your council, fire service and other well-trained bodies" to "Do a fire risk assessment"

This means that every venue now has to complete a risk assessment for their fire preparations, rather than simply accept guidance handed down from those aforementioned bodies.

As Steve mentions, ask to have a read of the risk assessment they've done - this must explain their actions and reasons for the action(s) they have taken.
If you have concerns about the assessment, then you should (in fact must) raise them.

Personally, I think that change is the biggest mistake of UK Government since the trains were privatised, but there you go...

Difficult thing to comment on without much more info and a good look at the hall really.

What I can say is that a Fire Officer told me that one hose is better than dozens of extinguishers. This was in response to a rep who was trying to persuade us to install more extinguishers.

Sounds like somebody has produced a rather skewed view of the new self-assessment system. Removing fire extinguishers takes away the risk element to staff. However, in a venue with electronics and electrics a common feature, then the use of hose reels is an immediate hazard to those using them.

In the new combined system, the risk analysis on-line documentation used by many people for theatre style venues includes one question

Have you provided sufficient and suitable fire fighting equipment?:

I would suggest that water as the only means of fighting a fire is not sufficient, or suitable.

That, in itself does seem to indicate that your risk assessment is inadequate to give sufficient protection to staff and guests.

Interesting, I had a fire extinguisher training day yesterday so I can see why people might comment on the dangers of using them. I would suggest that removing the extinguishers isn't realy much different to removing First Aid boxes incase someone who isn't first aid trained tries to use one. Perhaps simply having someone on site who is trained would be enough to satisfy the H&S bods. As Paul says it is indeed a matter of self protection and making the judgement, which is the lesser of two evils?

Does show the wisdom people use when doing RAs! Extinguishers are there to prevent small fires growing into big disasters. However fire first aid - ie before the statutory fire service arrive is something that needs doing, and by skilled people. Someone needs training and experience to limit fire damage.

There should be almost nothing on a stage that needs water as extinguishant, with all the electrics.

It is indeed a very odd solution to remove all fire extinguishers, unless they are planning some insurance scam

If they have done a Fire Risk Assessment, I think they have come to the wrong conclusion on how to avoid the incorrect use of extinguishers. The correct solution would be to provide training to all staff in the correct use of an extinguisher.


BTW: Where is the spell check button gone?

Quite. In many organisations, most employees are instructed that fire extinguishers have one purpose - to enable staff and visitors to make a safe exit. They are not provided to allow all and sundry to "fight the fire" - that's a job for the pros.

that's exactly what I was told by an ex-H&S exec, I'd LOVE to hear what they said to the removal of all the fire extinguishers!

I could not agree more, when the hose is attatched to a fire engine and being pointed by a firefighter. Otherwise if the fire it that big then you should not be fighting it.

Fire first aid -extinguishers etc- is a poor substitute for the timely attendance of the statutory fire service. However local fire precautions may save a building from total loss, and allow safe evacuation of the occupants.

There is one plastics factory still standing because I spotted a small fire and put it out within seconds -wet tea towell if I remember rightly- otherwise a laboratory solvent extraction flash over would have caused the evacuation of Frome due to poison fume cloud. Simple and essential.

Hmmm...
Trapped in a burning building and either:
A. Having a Fire Extinguisher to hand
B. Having no Fire Extinguisher due to "PC" rules deeming a general member of the public couldn't possibly operate such a complicated piece of machinery.

Can I have 20 seconds on the clock please.

Hello, new member here (though long time lurker)

I would agree as to the usefullnes of fire hoses. In my job as a building maintenance engineer I have twice had to use a fire hose "in anger"
The first time was at an office block in the west end, at the rear of the building was a light well onto which other premises backed. during repair works in these premises, refuse was being thrown the light well into a skip at the bottom. For reasons not established this skip of refuse ignited, I telephoned the fire brigade first and then attacked the fire by directing a hose reel jet from an upper window. Had I not done so, the fire could have rapidly spread up the light well via the scaffolding.
It took the fire brigade twenty minutes to arrive due to the severe traffic congestion.

The second time I used a fire hose reel was at a governmemt office in north london. Anti government protesters set light to a car immediatly outside the building. I felt that although there was no immediate risk to the building (which was evcauated as a precaution) there was clearly a risk that the burning vehicle would ignite others, and ultimatly endanger buildings. I therefore directed water onto the surounding vehicles in order to cool them and avoid the petrol tanks catching fire. After about ten minutes the fire was out with only minimal damage to the surroundings. All this was done from a considerable distance, a close approch being most unwise.
Fire brigade attendance was much delayed by protesters blocking roads, and making hoax calls to the fire service.

In todays troubled times, we must also consider the risk of terrorist attack on public buildings. Such attacks could result in many casulties with burns either from petrol bombs etc, or from chemicals. Plentiful clean cool water applied to the burnt areas is the best first aid treatment in such cases. Fire hose reels are a useful source of water for such purposes.

Hose reels
Permanent hose reels installed in accordance
with the relevant British Standard (see BS EN
671-321) provide an effective firefighting facility.
They may offer an alternative, or be in addition
to, portable firefighting equipment. A concern
is that untrained people will stay and fight a
fire when escape is the safest option. Where
hose reels are installed, and your fire risk
assessment expects relevant staff to use them
in the initial stages of a fire, they should
receive appropriate training.

So say HM Guvinmint. http://www.communities.gov.uk/documents/fire/pdf/144821 Fire Risk Assessment for small and medium places of assembly.
If they have removed all of the extinguishers then I presume that all relevant staff have had hose reel training?? As Paul seems to suggest, someone has half read or understood the Regulatory Reform Order, because this comes AFTER several pages on the use of fire extinguishers. Note also "be in addition to..."

Back to the OP. It's their hall and their risk assessment. There is a lot in risk assessing about assessing the ability of the people involved. If it's a hall with youth users then the extinguishers will be big red playthings, if there are elderly infirm then they will take too long to get out without stopping to find and use an extinguisher.

In a place of work where the people should be slightly more disciplined and able-bodied then timely use of an extinguisher may save the whole building.

A fire in a waste paper bin should be safely extinguishable, a dustbin sized fire could be a reasonable limit for "amateur" firefighting anything bigger it's doubtful that extinguishers would operate for long enough to help.

I'm a former CAA airport fireman but I'm not up on current regs!

'lo,
it maybe possible that not all the fire extinguishers in the hall were there due to the recommendation of the fire brigade or from the initial fire risk assessment. Having dealt with fire extinguisher reps and service people in several venues, sometimes their advice seems to be more sales related than based on safety concerns. For example we had the sales rep telling us me must replace all our black C02s as they were out of date and corroded. The extinguishers had been tested and inspected two months before with no mention of faults or corrosion.

The more I'm looking at certain H&S regs and guidelines I think they are driven more by sales and suppliers than anything else; for example we have a venue that is used more for parties and playgroups than for shows and the venue's genie lift is getting tested and inspected annually & every 6 months by a service company and then tested and inspected by insurance appointed company person as well. That's all very good but it almost seems that these people are using the unit more than the staff!!!

This seems a bit odd to me. It strikes me that a fire small enough to be put out by your average office sized fire extinguisher is going to have a tiny chance of blocking your exit. I was under the impression that fire extinguishers were there specifically to give trained workers the tools required to fight small fires so as to not endanger life and property by unnecessarily letting a small fire turn into an inferno. By not putting out a fire when you could easily do so surely you would be unnecessarily putting firefighters lives at risk?

I've worked in lots of buildings with no fire extinguishers in public places in the interest of safety, maybe they are treating the whole building as public and their risk assessment is well thought out after all. We've got a fire engine coming later to refill a header tank that we had to drain and would take about a week to fill from the mains so I'll show them this thread and try and get there opinions on it. Edit: Yes I'm an idiot and completely forgot to mention it!

Remember that the fire plan has to be appropriate for the intended or expected population. In a workplace the instructions could well say that people should get out to an assembly point, and some people willl have designated responsibility for clearing places like toilets and storecupboards of people who haven't got out fast enough.

In an old people's home the instructions say to get INTO your room unless the fire is there. Each room is built as a fire stop cell and the emergency services can get the people out more appropriately than leaving some shocked elderly frame pushers to impede the firemen.

The fire plan in the OP may well have been made with "less competent people" in mind.

Whilst jivemasters comments may be correct, how come we've got into the workplace and an old peoples home?

The OP was talking about an entertainment venue and this is a theatre based forum.

The owners/operators of the venue in the OP should have carried out a risk assesment to comply with The (Fire Safety) Order 2005 and for which HM Gov. publishes guidance notes the ones of which appertaining to our industry are 'Fire safety risk assesment (theatres, Cinemas, and similar premises) - freely downloadable from the www.

Here are some of the points made about fire extinguishers etc within those guidance notes.

All Theatres, cinemas, concert halls and similar premise should have suitable fire frighting equipment, in most cases fire extinguishers will be sufficient...... Located on escape routes, fixed to dedicated stands..... where they will be under supervision but not readily accessible to the public...... Staff should be trained in the use of extinguishers.......portable extinguishers are not intended for public use...... if there is a risk of malicious use they may need to be placed in alternative and more secure locations....... for class A fire risk one water based extinguisher for every 200sq Mtr with minimum of two per floor.... no one should have to travel more than 30mtr to find one.

Hose reels provide an effective fire fighting facility, BUT untrained people may stay to fight a fire when escape is best, because of the unlimited supply of water....... They are inappropriate where there are many doors to negotiate - which may inhibit running out the hose, and hose will wedge open doors allowing smojke to circulate into escape routes.

The venue in the OP may have decided that because of percieved malicious use to place the extinguishers in a secure location, and if they have trained staff permanently on duty that's ok, but the hose reels are still available to the public?

Personally I like to be able to see fire extinguishers on display, in todays society with all the H&S legislation and training taking place it is a fair bet that among the public visiting entertainment venues there are likely to be people trained to use extinguishers.

Finally, training tells us that the first thing you do on discovering a fire is to sound the alarm and evacuate the premises, only staying to tackle the fire if it is safe to do so, ergo applying first principles, you don't need a fire extinguisher.

The OP venue management may have decided that their client base falls into the less competent -Nursery groups and Luncheon clubs so requiring the get out only response.

Whether the lack of extinguishers is appropriate for when the hall is a place of work for a week for the am-dram etc then only you can determine, but I would think not.

It still doesn't make any sense to me to remove the fire extinguishers but keep the hose reels.
Fire extinguishers are an excellent and practical means to fight a small fire before it becomes a big fire. The good thing about them is that they run out in a relative short time so that if you can't control it with an extinguisher, you still have time to escape. Hose reels on the other hand, unless operated by a trained professional with appropriate PPE, increase the risk of someone staying around too long in an attempt to fight a fire. Also, they are water based which, in a venue with probably a lot of electronic equipment, is not a really good idea to use. Most fires in a theatre are likely to have started by an electric fault or overheating and as such a hose reel would be an inappropriate means of fighting that fire.
If the hall is concerned about public access to fire extinguishers, why not place them in a 'breakglass' box such as these.
For me removing them is like removing the First Aid kit 'because it could be applied wrong and an ambulance is better'. BTW, I do trust there is a First Aid kit in the hall?

I know I haven't posted much recently, but I feel very strongly about this subject. Fire extinguishers are an essential part of the fire safety Risk Control System in any building. Referring to the Regulatory Reform (Fire Safety) Order 2005, Part II, Article 13 the situation is clear (my editing):

Where necessary … in order to safeguard the safety of relevant persons, the responsible person must ensure that the premises are, to the extent that it is appropriate, equipped with appropriate firefighting equipment and with fire detectors and alarms.

PDF of The Regulatory Reform (Fire Safety) Order 2005

The "where necessary" and "to the extent that is appropriate" is open to much debate and comment. As hoses remain in the premises, the risk assessor or whoever removed the extinguishers would, I believe, find it hard to justify the extinguisher removal because there is a justified requirement under the "where necessary" part of the law.

Having hoses alone is not usually considered to be "to the extent that is appropriate" - as has already been highlighted hoses should be installed in conjunction with extinguishers. Also, as has been written in previous posts, water is not appropriate for many fire hazard classes found in the vast majority of premises.

As for training, the RRO does require, under Article 13 (2) (b), that the responsible person nominates competent (I.e. trained) people to implement safety measures, such as using fire extinguishers. There is no requirement not to have extinguishers unless people are trained though!

As has been indicated by others, there are many ways to prevent extinguisher misuse and abuse from alarms to cabinets. I personally feel neither reason is good enough to remove extinguishers especially if they were present before.

to summ it up quickly fire extinguishers should be installed regardless. The amount can be decreased if hose reels are installed but extinguishers and fire blankets must be installed.

I have seen some intresting risk assessments but to totally remove extinguishers!! last time I checked £3000 fine for incorrctly carrying out your own assessment.

Adam

Well, in the two years since this topic died, my own venue has had the fire hoses removed, as the fire service disconnected the wet riser that supplied them. The quantity of hand extinguishers was not increased to compensate, and fire blankets are not a feature of our precautions in the venue. Self certification seems to be easing the situation. The Iron no longer features in the licence, and although we keep it serviced at the usual intervals, it too seems to have been downgraded.

Personally I find it rather alarming that more than two years since the Act came into force, our local authority has only just only just got round to employing a fire safety officer whose role is to visit all premises in the borough to conduct/review their FRAs.

The attitude from the fire service in the same period has been very laid back and very much "whatever your RA says"

We are a 410 seat theatre and we have had 2 inspections since 2005, the last one was Sept 08. We have removed hose reels and reduced the number/type of extingushers (as we have no one trained to use them) to the minimum according to BS5306-8. The inspector was quite happy that our priority is to clear the theatre, sod the structure/fittings.
He wants our staff to concentrate on getting people out quickly & attending to disabled. Leave the fire fighting to the fire service.
They are more interested that the RA is up to date including evacuation policy, updating records, maintenance records, inspection records etc.

We are quite lucky in one respect that the inspector is one of our regular patrons and keeps an eye on things as he attends shows, (It does have disadvantages!)