Saw this brilliant gig last night....fabulous sound system too. Anyone know what the desk and PA were?

Cheers.

J

I believe ESS are providing PA for the tour: turbo aspect with a Heritage 1000 out front...specific details would need to come from the guys on the tour.

Jim

Edwin Shirley Staging, surely not. Who are the 'other' ESS? (Or did you mean SSE?)

Could be!

ESS PA Hire. Address. Unit 14, Bleak Hill Way. Hermitage Lane Industrial Estate. Mansfield. Notts. NG18 5EZ.



Ian

I thought that the Empire had it's own permanent rig installed in it? Plus a console, though tours tend to swap that out for their console.

I could be wrong in saying that.

Entertainment Sound Specialists from Mansfield. Same dudes as Ian mentioned.

Hi, just got back from London after watching The Feeling on Saturday night. Amazing gig, definitely a big fan now. We were right at the top, great view and the sound was good, even all the way up there. It looked like they were using in house speakers as some of them were stacked and flown in pretty tricky locations - I think they were EAWs, the desk was a Midas of some sort...

I can't see a band like the feeling going out with ESS's old turbo gear. Every time I've ever heard ESS's gear, it's always been shocking! Derby Uni May Ball springs to mind....

Just my 2p!

OK here goes.

The Feeling are out with ESS, FoH speaker system is Turbosound Aspect system, powered by MC2 amps with XTA controllers Midas Heritage out front.

At Shepherds Bush they will have used the in House EAW KF-850 system (there's no flying and its too expensive to move the system out for one gig). They have a Midas XL3 out front though it is possible that ESS plumbed in their own desk.

Hope that clears all up

Furry

Turbo aspect is only a couple of years old and apparently sounds rather good, even though it hasn't perhaps achieved the market share that Turbo would have liked. I guess that they used their old flash/flood for derby uni's event, so a completely different (and much more tired) system there?

Rgds,

Matt

Bear in mind its not just down to the gear, it takes talent (band), a room and an engineer to ruin the sound aswell. Though that said they do run their Flood with Crown MA amps - which has never been a great combination. Much better with QSC PowerLights, Labs or MC2s.

And I understand that Brit Row are out with Primal Scream using their Aspect later this month - that should be a good gig with good gear, good engineer and half way decent band in halfway decent rooms.

Dan, I think the items mentioned by furry face in the last post had alot to do with the poor (or worse) sound for the live part of the may ball.

It was mainly floodlight gear, only with the 2x18 subs not the normal flood subs. The system appeared to be setup for the "dance" music which played throughout the latter part of the evening. IIRC that was from say 2am until 6am. From what I can remember the system didn't sound bad for that. For the live material I must admit it was Poor, Being able to make out the band (just) with kick drum (not a pleasant one at that) fetching your teeth out at 60feet. With Digital crossovers and the like being part of most setups nowadays (certainly the setup in question) I cannot see how a change of preset at 2am would have hurt too much.

The Aspect stuff is a very nice sounding rig, I agree fully with Matts comments about it not having as larger share in the market as they would like (and probably should). Can't comment on the way ESS use theirs, I can confirm that it IS THIS ESS from Mansfield thats providing the Gear for the show in question. I somehow think there will be a bit more to it than just throwing some boxes up and turning it on.


Rob

Yeah sorry, my mistake - it wasn't aspect at derby, it was the floodlight. Blond moment there. Not heard any aspect stuff so I cant really comment... but never been a huge turbo fan. Not enough vocal clarity for me!

Listen to Rob he knows what he's on about. Something like that anyway!



Yes I realise this. Meh! But the sound at Derby was particularly bad. Just loud and not alot else!

If you don't think there's enough vocal clarity you really need to get and listen to an Aspect rig. I'm lucky enough to have used one and one thing it does not have an issue with is vocal clarity. Remember it has a single 10" Hi-mid driver (like nothing you've seen before, btw) which runs from 405Hz upto 5K rolling gently off to meet the dome tweeters (not harsh comp drivers minds) which come in at 5K99. The driver also has a sensitivity of 114dB,one hundred and fourteen dB at one watt/one metre. Running this with MC2 amps and new XTA DP448s will redefine your idea of vocal clarity. Imagine the vast majority of the vocal range, and certainly the part that contains most of the information, on a single paper driver. No crossover in the middle of it. No compression driver honk. No passive crossover sucking out the dynamics and energy. Just make sure you've got good talent on stage and well matched microphones.

Still I'm ranting now. But if you get chance go and have a listen to the Feeling, Primal Scream or even Rancid who are out with it at the moment, though I think the Scream will be the best gig overall.

All done, now as its too early for this. Anyway don't take this as a dig, no offence meant



Edit: Quote fixed.

Anyone liking Turbos Aspect system will love Funktion One's Resolution System, which im sure you've all heard or heard of. its an amazing system and now comes with F221 bass bins!! 2x21" drivers, serious beef!! Check them out, currently on tour with The Zutons, or as of friday DJ Shadow, both have dates at Brixton Academy, but im unsure of any other dates. System courtesy of Audio Plus.

Sennheiser mic's if it's any use, more info at: http://www.ukslc.org/News/Installs_and_Cas...nd_Neumann.html

eeeeuuurrrghhhhh the good old 21"-ers. Hit the kick drum... half a second later you hear it (or should that be feel it?).

Like I say, I'll reserve judgement on the aspect rig until I hear it furryface - I use d&b on a regular basis (regarded as some of the best systems around), which use d&b amps with bespoke dsp for each individual box - the vocal clarity of all their gear is among the best I've ever heard. The d&b Q7 also uses 10" drivers for the vocal range :-) I think it would be interesting to hear a comparison.

Reeling of a list of impressive sounding features of a box means nothing! What's the aspects control of dispersion like? is it as good off axis as on?

Just spent the last hour writing a considered and thoughtful response to your mail which has just disappeared due to lack of sleep and caffeine. Haven't got the energy to think it all through again. You have some points. So do I. I am basing mine on my experience (18years) and I'm sure you are basing your points on yours. Fair enough.

Q7 and Aspect are totally different systems in terms of philosphy, design, useage and market. The nearest D&B equivalent would be the J series in terms of ueage and market but it is still very distant in term sof philosophy and design. All manufacturers have differing philosphies on achieving an optimum audio performance but all systems are compromised by price-point, market, manufacturing technology. As such each manufacturer picks their own areas of compromise and excellence. The more systems you have experience of the more you begin to realise this.

I would also put forward the arguement that many of the "advances" in Audio Production technology in recent years have compromised audio quality and performance in favour of consistency and ease of use. This is not just related to this particular point you raise but the recent changes available in the technology of sound reinforcement such as dsp, control surfaces, amplifiers, signal transmission and speaker design have not always lead to a improvement of the sound of events. Safer and more consistent, yes. Amazing and compelling, rarely.

But in short Aspect has real dispersion from 20kHz down to around 1kHz (where size of horn comes into play) rather than the more often quoted "nominal" or "pickwhatlooksbestforyourproduct" dispersion quoted by many manufacturers. Good pattern control and off axis drop off. Allowing a point source system to arrayed with next to none of the usual problems associated with multiple sources. I did go into this in much more detail in my lost message but if you would like to discuss the various issues concerning Aspect please PM me and I'll reply when I've had some sleep.

In short both our opinions are valid, like manufacturers approaches to the same problem. I hope that, if you move further into the murky audio world, using different systems in different circumstances and somehow manage to scratch a living from it (like me ) that you take each experience as it comes learn the good and bad points, take conclusions based on experience and keep your mind open to new possibilities. The truth is out there but no-one has managed to manufacture it yet.

Right, some form of rest is called for, getting too old for these late nights/early mornings lark.

F

"eeeeuuurrrghhhhh the good old 21"-ers. Hit the kick drum... half a second later you hear it (or should that be feel it?)."



yeah ive had that experience with previous 21"-ers, but these are amazingly fast, the zutons for example, the second the band paused, the sound stopped, the instant the bass player (russell pritchard) played the next note, bang in your face bass. the way it should be

Aye Up

I think I have mixed 5 gigs at shep bush. 3 on the older setup of KF850 with older (unknown) amps and traditional EAW analogue processing with Yammy PM4000 at FOH.

I have done 2 events more recently with at the newer in house Midas H3K and same KF850 but with new processing and amps.

Never saw an XL3 there. I may be wrong.

Shep bush sounds bloody brilliant. it sounded nice with the older setup and even better with the newer stuff. Happy days.

Not for short people. I am 6ft and I need to stand on a box to mix at FOH ;-)

Cheers

Mark

KF850... love it but I aint gonna truck it.


oh.... the monitor desk might be an XL3 ??? Wrong end of the core.

Oh well, I've got no chance!

Regarding the Aspect, they seem to be getting more usage, twas Miss Bedingfield who Christened them wasn't it? From what I was told, they'd had teething problems in the mids, but I think that's been sorted out now.

Would love to hear them. Maybe I could go down the road and ask for a demo, they're only 15 mins away.

Was when I was last there

Are you sure youre not a turbo salesman Furryface?! Seems I hit a bit of a nerve there... it wasn't my intention. I just feel like using a statement like 'it will redefine your idea of vocal clarity' is such a nonsensical and naive comment to make - especially when you have no idea of the other board members experience and what gear they use/have used. I'm sure aspect is a perfectly decent system, but again I'll reserve judgement until I hear it in person - there are plenty of other systems out there that will probably match, and beat it!

I agree with pretty much everything you've said... Allthough I would argue that most of what you said about aspects dispersion is true for pretty much most of d&b's high end products (C,Q,E and J). and d&b don't scrimp when it comes to the design and compromise - which is why the list price of a Q1/Q7 is around £7K a box (dont quote me on that - that might be for a pair), and then you need a D12 (another £3K) to power it with. (no I'm not a d&b salesman, before you ask )

And please don't presume that other board members are less experienced than you - it really gets my goat when people seem like they're talking down to you - surely that's not the point of these kinds of forums.

Have a nice day

That would be the list price for a pair Dan. Each box is around £2500 - £3000. But then again who in this world actually pays list?!?!

Dan, although I love d&b and as we have lots of it in the rental fleet, use it daily I have to ask how many other systems you've used. You seem very pro d&b and not much else. Their systems have their place in the industry, but its all job dependant, for example I wouldnt dream of using Q on a stage at Global Gathering (although someone did this year ) and like wise I wouldnt put Nexo Alpha into a theatre. Granted its very much preference based as well given the number of contenders in each catagory but I just get the impression you havent had the chance to hear lots of systems.

Every system has its place, its been said here many times, and yes each box lists about £2.5k but then again my W8's list at £3.5k per box, similar output figures, similar power handling only the Q7 is a 1/3 of the size and weight, and cheaper at list price. Hmmmm. Completely different sound. Dans mixed on my rig many times and as I'm sure he'll tell you, its a different sound to d&b completely, but still a damn good sound.

He's also mixed for me on a C4 system. a Funktion 1 system, Arcs, vertec, and I think W8LM, an EAW system in an install what I can't remember along with countless other rigs from touring range to club systems, and he's had an incredible sound out of a pair of "The Box" PA110's for a 5 piece band in a small club in Loughborough. I dont think he's Pro D&B and nothing else its just what he's using in his current job.

His experience with various turbo rigs is not unlike alot of other peoples, it is ideal in some situations, not in others, I used to use Flash day in day out, I used tse a bit, have some Q. I like aspect, not used it enough to form a full opinion, never used it in anger.

Well that put me in my place!

I'll just grab my coat...

Not looking to condescend anyone. That's what over working does to you especially when you've just lost the mail you'd spend 40minutes writing. If I hit a nerve with you on that matter then I'm sorry seems like we all may be touchy about somethings. If anything I was trying to encourage you and all the younger members of this board to be open up to ideas and not to just accept things as they are. If there's one thing I noticed is that for a good few years we lost a lot of younger people coming into the game and that has always worried me, hence why I want to encourage people to stay in it - perhaps things are getting better again?

I have no problem with D&B for some tasks but there are some I'd choose not to use to use it on. The point of my arguement is that all parts of a PA system are tools, they are all suited to some tasks (some better than others) and all are, by the nature of commercial manufacturing, compromised to some extent in one area or another. The same can also be said about desks etc, even the XL8 which seems to only compromised by its price.

You do right to reserve judgement but don't condemn stuff in absence either.

I also wanted to bring up the theory that alot of the modern "advances" in our game our a bit of the "emperors new clothes" syndrome driven by manufacturer's need to constantly cycle new products. This is not always to the advantage of the rental companies nor engineers. Newer is not always better. So when a product does come along that I think does make things better I will champion it .

So if these ideas or theories offend you sorry. And as I said I'm not about talking down to anyone - I am always learning from people young and old - and I'm not trying to turn this board into a slanging match.

Have fun

No worries mate - no offence taken. Like I say, I didn't disagree with what you were saying (in fact I completely agree) - it was maybe just the way your point was made.

I certainly agree that 'old is not always better' - take robs W8 rig for example - I'm sure he wont mind me saying that it's fairly old, a bit battered (not to mention massive and bloody heavy!), but it sounds awesome. It all depends in what your looking for in a system. Yeah, fair enough I might be a bit biased towards d&b, but thats because I use it on a regular basis, and I know from experience that most of their gear is very very good - but I'm certainly aware that there are some other very good systems around, along with some not so good ones...

Maybe I could put forward the notion that nowadays, in pro-audio, there are no 'bad' systems out there... however it's not possible to make a system that satisfies every need......

Although I heard that Meyer MSL4's do

Glad that sunshine and light has broken out on the board again. Anyway keep the passion and enthusiasm burning. Have fun and make noise

Have to mention, 30 posts into this thread, some credit should actually go to the FOH Engineer.

I have not seen this show, but I have had the pleasure of working with him on several previous occasions and in addition to being a jolly nice chap to work with he has always acheived a bloody great sound.

Doesn't matter what flavour of boxes you have piled up on stage, it still needs someone who know what to do with them twiddling knobs at the other end.

Peter
P.S. Jon, if you're reading PM me. If anyone's stood next to him, give him a nudge this way will you. Ta

Nah... mixing bands is a piece of cake. Any half wit can do it........
Fail as a musician and then follow the multicore off the stage to where it ends.

M

I thought it just went off into the unknown..... you're not trying to trick the musicians are you Mark?

I hate multicores, people who've worked for me on here will tell you, I'm happy to throw gear in and out of vans, up and down stairs, on and off stage all day and night but I try my very best to leave the multicore to someone else, maybe its just mine that are so awkward.

Sorry, random OTness there...

Then, step 1.5 metres to the left and take your position to start lighting the show.

Peter

Controversial!