And this is better than a grelly because????

Any chance you could make the picture a little bigger...?

Looks to me like the neutral pin is in the live socket, and the live pin is exposed, so, the current can go through the lamp and the unfortunate person holding onto said pin. Shocker!

*makes mental note to try this at work tomorrow.*

*and take a better photo*

I knew it was all going too well...

Can't wait to show this to my rep at Stage

Still, the things do survive some abuse. Spent a pleasant half-hour with our first one playing football/squash around the unit with it to see how fast it would break. Still in one piece!

S.

Have to say though, anyone who made that error would obviously be a numbskull who possibly even deserves a wee preheat tickle.

Heh? You've never fumbled about and plugged something about in the dark by feel while focusing? You'd only have to miss slightly, feel one of the pins engage and push the plug in, shocking...

That would be unsafe practice and therefore I wouldn't do it

Agreed, but some of us live in the real world. That's why the situation I just described would be an unfortunate accident, not a regular occurance as a result of an unsafe working practice...

Point A - I do live in the real world. A world where plugging up is done all the time without mishap. Generally I would have a torch with me when focussing or if unsure would ask for workers.

Point B - There was a smiley after my post.

Just took a look. I can confirm that it's entirely possible to do, with only a little undue pressure (say, exactly the amount that it takes to fit a slightly new 15a plug). With your eyes closed, it doesn't "feel" wrong, just a bit stiff.

360 degree pictures:






I've called Stage Electrics to let them know. Until they respond, be careful out there, folks...


EDIT: Further investigation shows that it's even easier to do on the top socket. No additional pressure required at all. In fact, the newly live pin is several mm clear of the side of the squelly.

I've swapped mails with my Stage LX rep, and his comment was essentially that they were made & tested to BS5733a and as such comply with all relevant safety regs. How far do you go to protect users from bad practices...? He cites ".... unsleeved 15a plug pins that little fingers can touch,
1.5mm extension leads over 15m,
Multicores with potentially 2 phases running through them.........." as other possibly unsafe practices we probably ALL see every day, which is I suppose rather valid, but maybe doesn't excuse what may be a tricky situation wiith the Squellies....

None of those, however, are anywhere near as bad as an exposed conductor in a area where handling is likely, with a plug and socket that can "appear" to be fully mated.

Just saying....

It occurs to me that if these are to BS5733a, then either BS5733a is badly flawed, or the tests weren't carried out by a observant tester. Does anyone have BS5733a?

Not a very good answer form the Stage LX rep I feel [sounds a little bit too defensive to me]. I am sure they were “made & tested to BS5733a”.

I bet they wish they tested it a bit more as I can see this as an accident waiting to happen.

I certainly don’t like the argument “How far do you go to protect users from bad practices...?” Well I think as far as reasonably possible, but is this a bad practice or an accident waiting to happen?

Yes there are bad practices “using 1.5mm extension leads over 15m,” or “Multicores with potentially 2 phases running through them”, but most of them I would say are through choice I.e. someone knows this is happening. Where as this I feel this (wrongly plugging in the 15amp plug) would be more likely to happen through accident than choice.

So now that this has been pointed out to me, and the failure of these units to be designed with a failsafe to stop this happening, I won’t be purchasing any.

Regards

P.S. I wonder what would happen under US law if anyone has purchased one these over there and they had an accident? In the US I think they tend to be far more ready to sue.

the only advantage of the horrible flimsy break if you look at it wrong explode in your face snappers over the origonal bakerlite grelco was that you couldn't do that.

in fact the only reason we withdrew the grelcos from use was due to problems with people getting shocks from just that happening

think my new squelcos will be going back


on an aside, there seems to be a general agreement in this thread that "Multicores with potentially 2 phases running through them” are bad practice. is this really still considered bad practice (shock horror , a bit of HO7 5core multicore will quite likely have 3 phases in it - is this even worse practice?)

You're correct, of course. I just didn't want to even start the old "multiple phases in multicore" discussion, that's all!

Bryson,

A quick search on BS5733a* shows:

"5.2 Accessories shall be so designed and constructed that, in normal use, their performance is reliable and
without danger to the user or surroundings.

11.3 Accessories incorporating plug-in and/or socket devices shall be so constructed as to prevent:
a) any associated earthing plug-pin from making contact with a current-carrying socket-contact; and/or
b) any associated current-carrying plug-pin from making contact with a current-carrying socket-contact
while any other plug-pin is accessible.
NOTE The term plug-pin is, in this context, taken to include any means by which the plug-in device makes electrical contact with
the socket device.
Conformity shall be checked by inspection and application of a corresponding accessory."


Simon

* available via Athens for research purposes only

Thanks Simon. If you look up, I did find it in the end..

Procuring and searching the BSI document introduces a little latency I'm afraid....;-)

Of course it wouldn't occur to me to see what had been posted in the meantime!

Good to see we agree on the relevant section of the standard, anyway!

Rumour as it that a South West London based supplier will have stock of a re-engineered/manufactured version of the older style over/under type during September.

The real pictures of the new ones that I've see are:

they look like they would have the same problem as they don't have the bulges that the snappers used to, difficult to tell from a photo though

Edit: edited to remove quoted photos

'e' gads
caused a little bit of a storm I feel!
as for the safe working practice line earlier.it's a darn certainty that you are going to have to unplug/ replug one of these at the top of a scope at some point when they are plugged in above head height and you have no choice but to use 'the force' to guide your way. and by the sounds of the BS standard they do not conform as it is possible to create a dangerous situation with no need for force or alteration of the unit. how many of us know of SM or even turns who are require to plug/ unplug things during a show. you can guarantee that they wouldn't look to hard or be concentrating on this. a plug is a plug to them, why would it be designed in a way where this is possible. it'd never get into a household environment thats for sure. it only needs a little lip/ nodule sticking out the side to stop this. as for the robust nature, we broke one within minutes of getting them, and we are not amateur's.

And Stage have sold 30,000 plus of them, apparently....!

so it seems. we bought 100 of them.

Perhaps we should make a phone call to Watchdog. I'm sure they could get atleast 15 minutes of sensationalist programming on how theatres and events up and down the country are a death trap, and we should all sit inside wrapped in cotton wool. [/rant]

It does appear that they do fail to meet the relevant BS. Therefore I think I'd consider returning them to the supplier and expect a refund or some other form of compensation.

You know, I always wondered what those little bulges on the side of old-style snappers were for. Now we know, I guess!

I'm having to physically hold myself back from a rant on this one, more than happy to discuss via PM should anyone want to though! All I'll say is it's not bad practice, if it was would it be really so wide spread (and yes it is wide spread!)

One thing I would also like to say is, although this issue does appear to be potentially dangerous I think a line needs to be drawn as to how far we go to protect the 'idiots' of this world. Should we erect portable traffic lights and suitable barriers to be protected from being hit by a car when crossing the road, or should we just 'stop, look, listen'? Don't get me wrong, I'm all for improving safety where possible and maintaining safety standards but a line has to be drawn somewhere. I think the fact that the phrase 'as far as is reasonably practicable' appears in nearly all legislation tells us something.

Sorry for the mini rant but I can just see us turning into a cotton wool society like in the states for example.

The UK is now worse than the states for a whole bunch of "protect people from themselves" legislation, especially where electricity is concerned.

That phrase so elequently sums up what I was trying to say, must use it more often!

So, in short it would appear that Stage Elecs are selling something which they claim complies with BS5733, but which turns out not to. Would be very interested to read some comment from a Stage Electrics rep regarding this - any of you BR-resident Stage Elecs chaps or chapesses care to post something in response to this topic?

I also agree that the response to Tony's enquiry was rather on the defensive side, and contained points which aren't really valid. Yes, little fingers can touch live portions of unsleeved 15A plugs that are partially inserted into a socket - but that's why unsleeved plugs are no longer sold!

And the other two arguments (two phases down a multi, long runs in 1.5mm2) are a bit pointless in this situation - while both of those practices are a little bit removed from what most people would consider to be the ideal, neither of them cause live metal parts to be exposed to the touch.

Yup - that's basically my response to the comments I received.
Don't get me wrong - I'm not trying to hammer SLX here, and have a great deal of time (and money, it seems! ) for the guys there, but after all the hassle they apparently went to securing these Squellies it surprises me that the issue has arisen.
I'll be keeping a close eye on this one, methinks.
And we do have at least a couple of SLX reps here... Cos one of them was touting for the Squelly! (Oh sorry - he was letting us know they wereavailable.... )

Actually, MK Duraplug 15A plugs are still unsleeved and very available.

And as it would seem the pictures that we have bumped around a few customer's have made it on to here, our 15A splitter (which we are launching at PLASA once it has finished its trip through the CE testing lab) certainly can't have a plug put into it incorrectly.

I have one in my hand along with both a Duraplug and Permaplug to check!

Andrew Stringer, White Light

Is that White Light, or White Knight.....

Really? Didn't realise that - I thought they'd gone in the same direction as Permaplugs and changed the design to incorporate sleeved pins. Just goes to show how much attention I pay to connectors when fitting them to cables, I suppose!

Dear Blue Room,


Firstly thanks for all your comments regarding the Squelly. We have taken this very seriously and investigated the problem. We take safety as the absolute priority of our business and to that end have taken the decision today to recall the current version of the Squelly.

Below is our official press release, and please be assured that we are grateful for your input.

Thanks Adrian. It's good to see such a prompt and efficent response.

I suppose it illuminates a disadvantage of round vs square pins, as the round pins allow for this kind of "rotation" problem.

I hope we'll see a redesign soon as I'm quite pleased with mine aside from this problem.

Of course, now the problem is, Where can I buy some 15a doublers?????


Snipped excessive quote - Bryson

oh er!
now I didn't expect that! if I where stage electrics I'd be making a few stern phone calls to the suppliers about now! to be fare stage bought them in good faith, so the blame isn't really thiers. full respect paid for the recall though.
bit of a bad situation for all concerned. I'd hate to be in the shoes of the company that gave them a BS rating. does add weight to the round pin bad argument. oh well new set of BS coming out soon. see what the fates have in store for 15A!!!!!

The BS assessors I'm positive WILL be getting the rough edge of an MD's tongue!

As for 'round pin bad', that's a little severe... What are Ceeforms?
OK, THESE doublers have fallen foul of poor design, but 15A plugs in themselves are still a far better alternative in so many ways to any other available option (including ceeform) .

Dear Blue Room,

Squelly Update

The manuafacturer is in the process of re-designing the product and this will be with us in a few weeks.

Our industry need an adaptor! and to offer this we have been working on a short term solution to ensure the product is safe from misuse.

We have firmly adhered a 10mm Black Foamex panel to each side. (see picture enclosed)

What do people think?

Besides it looking a bit naff, how strong is the foam? Would it break off easily? Could someone break off the foam as they just pick it up and play with it?

Quite frankly it looks a bit desperate trying to sell them this way. I would have thought this is not something a company such as yours would want to do, but that is just my opinion (wait the few weeks).

More importantly, on the legal front if it has now been confirmed the current product doesn’t comply with the BS rating it isn’t legal I would have thought. Therefore adding a modification (the foam) would mean you having to have it go though the testing procedure again, wouldn’t it?

Regards

Honest opinion?
Looks as though it would stand up to a week's average use, and smacks of panic management - and I don't believe that this put forward as a serious solution will win you any prizes!

I'd say simply suck it up, give the designers and the BS assessers a right good roasting and carry on with the recall, with a big fat legal bill sitting on a couple of doorsteps (see aforementioned designers/assessers!!)

Surely it's got to be better to wait and release the 'version 2' of the Squelly than risk more confusion by releasing an inferior interim product?

Stu

I'd assume the foam bodge is developed as temporary measure, so people aren't left without splitting ability while the recall and replacement products are done. In that respect it would appear to do the job, although as mentioned it may not stand up to much abuse.

Er, sense of humour failure anyone? The product has been recalled, and will be back redesigned shortly - the picture from Adrian was a J O K E ...........

Not quite as big a joke as the BS accreditation, admittedly...

Moderation: fixed quote

It doesn't appear or come across as tongue-in-cheek, so if it is a joke, then maybe it needs some clarification. If it isn't? Oh dear.

Erm, sorry, but I didn't see it as a J O K E ( neither did others....!) - nowt wrong with my GSOH, but there you go.

It didn’t look like a joke to me. How do we know it wasn’t a serious view?

After all the first response was “How far do you go to protect users from bad practices...?”

I surprised the company would want to risk such a bad joke after such a disaster.

I would be interested to know (if it was is indeed a joke) was it sanctioned by a director of the firm, as all it is likely to do is alienate people with the firm taking such a caviller attitude to something so serious.