Hi Guys,


Topic title and tagline pretty self-explanitory...but has anyone ever used an O1V96v2 for the scene muting capabilities in theatre? Im thinking about using one for my production of Bat Boy next year. Itll feed an A&H GL2400 as the main mixer (band, foldback etc), and will be the sub-mixer for the 8 radio mics.

If youve got experience on using the desk for a similar application, id love to know how it worked out for you.


Any and all info greatly appreciated.

Cheers guys.


JG

I've used an 01V96 on its own for a couple of smallish musicals and it works fine even with inputs spread over layers. As a submixer with only 8 RF mics it should be a dawdle, though it also strikes me as a bit of a waste.

Don't forget all the extras the Yamaha will give you...things like several channels of good quality effects, dynamics processing and gate on every channel, delays, etc. etc, with all these things able to be altered scene to scene with presets. Are you sure you only want to run 8 mics through it and use it just for mutes?

Bob

Oops...original post wasnt quite as fullsome as it should have been...

Ok, there will be 8 beltpack mics (senn evo300g2), 3 vocal booth mics and one 'special' cast mic (seen evo e935), so, 8 wireless, 4 wired. 5 characters will be permanently mic'd, and the other 3 beltpacks will be spread around as needed. Ill be using the verbs inside the desk (can I have 3 separate ones running? 1 for the belts, one for the booth, and one for the special). Everything will be mixed down to a stereo signal, sent into the main desk.

Any particularly nice verbs youd reccommend in the desk? The show is Bat Boy The Musical if that helps, and I want a relatively natural verb for the belts, with a slightly artifical, processed sound for the booth, and a natural reverb in the special, but with a really long decay time (its for the evangelical priest, who sings a big, mock revival song).


.....

Ah...makes more sense with your extra details.

As for the reverbs, I tend to only use the factory presets as starting points, then adjust various parameters for myself. For a natural sounding one, I generally start with "Reverb Stage" but then play, mainly with the initial delay and total length. Making both of these shorter than the preset seems to me to work well with RF lavs. Depending on the sound I'm after, I'll also play with the HF/LF ratio settings.

The good thing, of course, is that once you get 'verbs you're happy with, these can be stored in your effects library and recalled on the scene presets.

Sorry to be a bit vague...I don't have a mixer in front of me as I type this!

Bob

How about archiving the scenes for safety etc? Can these be saved outside of the console?

Thanks, and any info at all about this desk in this context would be lovely. Cheers!

Yes...with a laptop running Yamaha's Studio Manager software. You can also use this offline to set up the desk in advance so you don't need to waste time with routings etc. when you're actually in the theatre with the board in front of you. You can download the SM software from the Yamaha site and have a play in advance. Make sure you know whether the 01V96 you're getting is the original version or version 2 because that makes a difference for the Studio Manager software.

Bob

Edit: When I hit send I re-noticed the title of this thread...pls disregard my comments about checking V1 vs V2!

Yes,

The settings can be saved in a couple of ways.

You can save the settings by doing a simple MIDI dump of the settings to a midi recorder (sequencer, or something like the Yamaha MDF-3)

Otherwise you could save the settings in an editable form by using the Studio Manager aplication with the 01v96 editor loaded.

You can download the SM + Editor software from Yamaha's Pro Audio website It can also be a useful offline editor for the desk.

James

Im probably being very thick here,but could you paste the link to the page to download studio manager for the 01v96v2?

Thanks so much guys...re-enforced my choice of the desk, it seems like a good choice for this application, and less than £200 a week to hire.

Cheers!

Studio manager (and USB-MIDI driver that you'll need to actually hook up to the mixer) are available from HERE.

In case you need them, manuals and installation guides for the mixer itself and the Studio Manager software can be downloaded from HERE.

Have fun. The night I downloaded SM (prior to buying a mixer) I lost much of a night's sleep playing!

Bob

Edit: Because it was a result of filling in a form on the Yammy site, the link to the manuals doesn't work directly, but if you fill in 01V96 in the search box it'll take you there.

Hmmm im a little confused. Ive downloaded the Studio Manager and the Driver. I cant install the manager because it gives me an error message, and I cant install the driver because I dont have the console. I wont have the console for almost a year because ill be hiring it, so is there any way I can use the studio manager without having a console?

Hmmm

I downloaded them last week and they ran without any hitches other than being addictive! An operating system problem perhaps. You dont need the console the software runs on its own.
Brian

What should have happened when I clicked to install the studio manager (I hadnt/havent installed the driver)?

This sounds like some seriously addictive software!

As lamplighter says, the SM software should run happily without a console (and, indeed, without the driver which is only needed when you link the console).

I've known a lot of people to download and install SM without a problem. As lamplighter says, it could be an OS thing (the Windows version of SM 2 only runs on Win2000 or XP--earlier ones would handle 98). Other than that, all I can think of is to delete everything and do the SM download again in case there was corruption on the first download.

Beyond that, maybe a call to Yamaha support in Milton Keynes?

Bob

Well, thats bizarre. Ive downloaded the zip file, extracted the sm217w folder to a folder, went into the sm217w folder and clicked setup. I got: error 1327, invalid drive e:

Im confused!

Okay, I may see the problem...but maybe lamplighter can confirm.

Reading the Yamaha site, it seems to say that you need to install the 01V96 Editor first, then the SM Host software.

I haven't used the download version since I bought a mixer...which came with a software CD. However, my memory is that version one just gave you a single big download.

Anyhow, that might be it! If lamplighter isn't around, the SM manual might she light on this too.

(Never ask a guy with the disk about downloads!)

Bob

ARGH!

Just tried to install the editor, the exact same error message as before.


ARGH!

http://www.yamahaproaudio.com/downloads/

This is where I go whenever I need any software from Yamaha.

There are three pieces of software you need.

1) Studio Manager This is the "host enviroment" that interfaces to many modern pieces of yamaha equipment. The current version is 2.1.7

2) 01v96 Editor, there are a number of editors that can be installed to contol a variety of yamaha equipment. You install the 01v96 editor aftter the SM host application. (Current Version 2.1.3)

3) USB MIDI Driver, Again this is a common driver for all yamah kit. You only need to install it after you connect a piece of yamaha kit to your computer. Don't bother with it if you are working offline, You could download it in case you meet a mixer when you don't have an internet connection but don't install it yet. (Current Version 2.1.5)

Thats all very well (and thanks), but as I say, I keep getting this error message and so cannot complete the first step and install the stuido manager.


Argh!

Another thing to add.

When you get to use a mixer you have to match mixer firmware with the version of SM and Editor you are using.

To check what firmware is installed press the Utility button followed by the Battery tab. There should be a little picture of a battery saying it's OK and a number in the bottom right hand corner. The number os the version of the firmware. If this is <2 then you will have a problem and need to update it. If it is >2 then it should be OK but would be nice to update to the latest version. (Current version 2.24) Full instructions are with the download.

James

Just tested it - I've downloaded the 2.1.7 SM distribution from Yamaha and it works fine.

That should confirm the software is working - sounds like a problem your end.

Where did you put the files to unzip them?
What programme are you using to unzip them?
Is the error the first message you get or is there a dialouge box asking where you want to install it?
What is your drive e:\?

James

Hmm..I just downloaded it, extracted it to a folder where I keep some yamaha manuals etc. Then just clicked on set-up. Thing is, I dont actually have a drive specified e:


I SO dont understand.

Error 1327 can be due to a problem with the Install Shield installer having a problem,

Basicaly your copy of Windows is passing it incorrect parameters about where to install the software .

Just to check - rae you installing it on a machine you have administrator rights over?

James

Yep. My laptop, im the only one who uses it.

What are the following registry keys set to if you have them?

• HKEY_CURRENT_USER\Software\Microsoft\Windows\CurrentVersion\Explorer\User Shell Folders.
• HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SOFTWARE\Microsoft\Windows\CurrentVersion\Explorer\Shell Folders
• HKEY_CURRENT_USER\Software\Microsoft\Windows\CurrentVersion\Explorer\Shell Folders
• HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SOFTWARE\Microsoft\Windows\CurrentVersion
• HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SOFTWARE\Microsoft\WinNT\CurrentVersion

James

Well, I just tried the download version here, and it installs fine for me.

I once had what may have been a similar problem with a downloaded piece of software (not Yamaha) and my solution at that time was to extract all the files then burn them to CD and install from there. For some reason that worked.

Failing that, James's talking you through registry entries etc. may bear some fruit...but rather than confuse things I'll leave that to him

Bob

I have absolutely no idea what James is on about with the system registry things!

Sorry!

Start Menu -> Run -> Open "regedit" -> Ok

You will be presented with a tree view of registry keys, some of which should relate to the keys which James is asking you for. I.e. HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SOFTWARE\Microsoft\WinNT\CurrentVersion will be the HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE tree, the SOFTWARE subtree and so on and so on.

Don't be tempted to edit any entries unless you know what you're doing, but you should be able to read off the keys at these locations to get help from James.

Im still absolutely confuddled, and frankly, if its this much bother to install the software Im not sure if I can be bothered- the show isnt until June 2007 after all. Digidesigns D-Show for the Venue was just like any other program, click, install, done. Very nice to use as well.

Thanks for all the help though- I just wish it wasnt such a bloody nuisance.

Ill try it on my desktop at home.

Trying a different comp is probably wise since the problem is almost certainly to do with your laptop.

I know of 20+ people who have downloaded and used the Yamaha software as easily as you describe the Digidesign stuff, so your experience is clearly not typical. (As an aside, over the past 20 years or so, Digidesign has had me tearing out my already-sparse hair on numerous occasions with THEIR software. Try running a TV facility with Avid, Protools and Avid Newsroom all interlinked...horror!)

...and once you get it, you WILL find it worthwhile to have..you can plot and store your whole show if you're that way inclined!

Bob

Tryed it on another pc, worked fine.

Have another laptop with a docking station and TFT which ill actually be using for the show (gonna have it set up as an external vie during the show), so ill try it on that once ive done the show file on the desktop.

Whats the easiest way to store scenes and name them? At first glance (I stress first!) it doesnt seem entirely clear....so any ideas? Cheers!

J

If you are new to digital consoles, I do not suggest creating scenes in advance. It is much easier to set the scene in real time and hit the "Store" button. If you have a lot of repatcing, or rerouting in your scenes you may need to do it in preproduction. If you do you need to remember all the parameters that are getting stored in each scene that you may not want stored. I assume all your scenes will be with no eq as you preprogram them, so as you recall each scene the eq will get reset to flat unless you run with the eq in Recall Safe. The same will be true for any other parameters that you will be setting up on site. It would be wise to familiarise yourself with Recall Safe, and Global Paste, before you have to use the desk. During rehearsals running the eq in Recall Safe may be a good idea. It allows you to make eq changes and store them in the scene, without recalling the previous saved settings. Your changes are still stored, just not recalled. When you turn off Recall Safe all your scene eq settings will be there and will recall as expected.

Mac

Thanks for all the help guys- much appreciated.

Has anyone done this show before? Any tips at all, id love to hear them!


Cheers guys.


JG

MacKerr's advice is spot on...in fact, it seems to me that I got some similar tips from him when I first bought my DM1000!

As for how to save anything in studio manager (scenes, routings, effects, etc.) I suggest you have a look at the SM manual. The method for any of these is basically the same...and it's not (at least for me) particularly intuitive but once you've got it, it's simple and easy.

I totally agree with Mac that you probably don't want to set up actual scenes in advance (unless, of course, you just want to have a play) but it is worthwhile preplanning all your routing and patching and getting that set up in advance. I'd also second the advice to get your head around Recall Safe. You WILL want to use this and it's not an easy thing to work out at the last minute at the theatre. (If I sound definite on this, it's because this is the big mistake I made on my first digital show a few years back.)

Sorry, I'm not familiar with Bat Boy, so can't be of much use there.

Bob

You mean to say, I haven't learned anything since then?

Mac

As you guys may or may not know, Bat Boy has LOTS of scenes where the actions veers instantaneously from full on chorus singing to a few people engaged in dialogue, and I can envisage more than the 99 scenes the desk stores. Is it possible and workable to have two different show files, one for act one, one for act two?

Yes, you would keep the two different show files on your computer and load the new file durnig intermission. You cannot be using the desk while you load the new file.

I am aware of shows that have gone over 100 scenes, but I have been involved in several fairly complicated musicals that were all under 100 scenes. If you have a scene that alternates between dialog and big musical moments 5 times, you don't necessarily need 10 scenes. You could go back and forth between 2 scenes. If you don't want to have to follow a book, or learn where to back and where to go forward, you may use a lot of scenes. The musicals I have programmed only went forward and were under 100 scenes. Basic scenes that you use over and over can be assigned to user defined keys for instant recall, as can scene increment functions.

Mac

I think for the purposes of this, I shall program it to go onwards only. The operator will have a copy of the script which will be meticulously marked as to the scene changes. The reasoning behind this would be that the operator is likley to be relatively inexperienced, so I want to keep it as simple as possible "press this to go to the next scene when you see the mark in the script".

I also have some audio for some projections that I'll probably put through the desk as well, although the thing as a whole will feed the main desk.

I did have the idea of sending a stereo band mix from the main desk back into the sub-mixer (using groups 3&4), then using the sub mixer to provide foldback for the cast, so levels, and vocal mixes in the foldback could change from scene to scene.

Good idea?

I don't think a stereo band mix is what you are going to want for monitoring on stage. I assume you are talking about a cast on hair worn lavs (or equivalent), putting much vocal in stage monitors can be problematic. Creating good monitoring from multiple desks can also be pretty complicated. You may want to find a way to take an aux (or a few) from one board to the other so you have complete aux control of the stage monitors. How are you using the 2 desks, and what is the main desk? Is the 01v96 only for cast mics? Can it take midi cues from the main desk? I am intrigued that you seem to be thinking of the console with the vocal mics as the sub mixer, and the band mix board as the main board. What is your overall concept of how these board work together? there may be ways to integrate the scene control more between them.

Mac

The main desk is a 32 channel gl2400, so no midi capability. Im going for this approach because the GL is the desk in the venue, and I have no way of using something else, and im choosing the O1V96 because I shall need lots of scene mutes all through the piece. I will also need different verbs in different parts of the show, and the internal fx will be very helpful.

The GL has six auxes, and there is a five piece band and im also having a vocal booth for several parts of offstage singing. The six auxes will be taken up with 5 band monitor signals.

However, something else has occurred to me- how about if I used the spare aux to send a common band mix to the O1v, that would be suitable for generating both a stage foldback mix, and also a mix for the vocal booth?


ps- the band is as follows:

md/keys 1, keys 2, guitar, bass, drums. The band will be offstage in the wings, so will the drums (the only 'acoustic' instrument) will be fully mic'd. The band will have to be behind screens, so proper mointoring (including video relay of the stage for the md, and a video feed of the md to the cast) will be important.

also, yes, im using lavs (mke-2's), hairline mounted, apart from one character who wears a hat all the way through- he'll have his mic mounted under the brim of the hat, pointing down (reference: tony meola's placing of elphaba's hat mic in wicked).

That will be a better solution. Don't forget you will also have to give a vocal mix to at least the MD, if not the whole band. I know that some people use programmable mutes and leave all the mics up all the time, but with full console programming, I find it is much easier on the operator if you program the faders up and down instead of just mutes. This gives a much better visual indication of which mics are active when they need to be mixed. If you want to create a sort of fake VCA you can bring over 4 groups from the 01v and have a boys lead, girls lead, boys chorus, girls chorus, inputs strips on the GL2400 so you can do most mixing on the main desk. You just add group assignment to the other parameters you are programming on each fader of the 01v96 so you can switch mics from group to group into the GL2400. Good luck.

Mac

Would this flying fader method cause any actual delay in the channels being ummuted when the recall button was pressed?

The band verb will be a lexicon mpx-1 (groups 1&2 out of the desk and into the unit, back into the desk on channels)- anyone have any reccommended programs- bearing in mind this is a very rocky show, with no acoustic sound coming from the band to the audience.

The project is in June 2007, so I expect I'll be asking more questions nearer the time! (and in between I would think).

There is no delay in the audio control. Even if the faders can't be up instantaneously, they are only chasing the internal computer control that has already opened the audio.

If this isn't for another year, I expect you may be looking at different gear by then.

Mac

If the band is as such and is not seen by the audience, one would wonder why a pre-recorded mix is not more suitable.

The venue is a school hall (new system a year ago, and its a fairly nice system), so I highly doubt much, if anything, will have changed.


Cast fold back will be 4 srm450's, and band foldback will be a mix of laney & phonic powered wedges.

Hardly the best equipment I know, but its what I'll have to work with.





Are you serious?!

Only the sh*ttest (sorry) musicals use a pre-recorded band, and when used this is a hugely obvious sonic factor. Notre Dame De Paris anyone? AWFUL show, completely recorded band and backing vocals. NASTY solution, pre-rec bands.

I like the idea of sending a band mix to the 01V than generating monitor mixes from there.

Just to plant an idea in your mind, don't forget that, with the 01V, you can switch auxes between pre and post on a channel by channel basis. For example, if Aux 1 is your feed to the MD, it can be pre fade for the orchestra channels, but post fade for all the vocal mics, giving him the sort of mix he needs. This feature alone was enough to sell me on digital mixers!

As for mute vs fader, with Yamaha mixers I never use the mute button anymore (well, very rarely anyway) and just programme in fades nothing (well, infinity, but you know what I mean) anywhere I need them. FYI, it can be as instant as you want, but I've come to prefer using a quick fade up/down rather than an instant change for most transitions. Most cues aren't so tight as to need to be an instant switch, and a fade smooths the edges if a performer gets it wrong or something. Dunno if anybody else does this, but it works for me.

Bob

OOps, crossed wires.

The md also plays keys, so his foldback will come from the GL. The stage foldback for the cast will be from the O1V- hence the band mix sent from the GL to it, then mixed with the vocals to provide foldback.

I can't for the life of me work out what the difference would be. Surely with the band locked up behind screens, it's not going to be as "live" as live music is supposed to be. And the music will be the same every night.... And the audience won't even know there's a band there, because they can't see them. Seems rather purist to me.....

Its not purist, its theatre.

In the VAST majority of musicals at every level, the band is live. If the music is prerecorded, then it will be a very stale feel to the performance. Not too mention that most musicals are not just song- scene- song- theres interchanges, massively fast transitions and huge dynamic ranges.

Actors cant, and shouldnt, repeat the same performance every night, and they certainly shouldnt do so to fit with a pre-rec backing track.

And believe me, the whole feel of the performance will be different, and better, with a live band.

Bob,

I'm interested in your approach - I've been using an 01V96 on musicals/pantos for a couple of years and have found it almost "liberating" in terms of the options it opens up functinality wise. However, this years panto is the first where I intend to pre-program the desk with scenes, as I won't be opping the show.

My intention was to program only the mutes leaving the sound op the ability to tweak the levels for each night's performance without the desk recalling a specific level for each scene. Your method seems more visually representative but I'm not sure about recalling a scene which fades up to a pre-determined level.

How does it work for you?

Ian

Well, all I can say is that it works very well for me. Basically, I use the fader itself like a mute, programming it to be moved up or down as required.

As mackerr said in an earlier post, if you programme in a fade with a zero duration, this is just like using the mute button because the actual audio transition is instant even if the physical fader move may be a fraction of a second behind due to the ballistics of the hardware. For fade ups, I would make the preset level one at the bottom of the range where I expect the vocalist to be...I don't know about you, but this mirrors how I work with a manual analogue board anyway--I tend to have a "starting point" that I know is safe from the point of view of hearing the vocal but not likely to "blast in" given natural variations by the performers.

However, as mentioned above, I've also found that in general I'm more pleased with results if, instead of a zero duration fade up/down, I programme in a short duration (.5 sec to 1 sec) fade. If all is well, this isn't noticed but if the performer is doing something silly (singing along to somebody else, throwing in a line he forgot five minutes before, that sort of thing) then the problem is "smoothed over" compared to a hard switch.

Once the faders are up, then mixing becomes a standard manual practice by ear.

The advantage I find to this is that the op (or me if I'm running the show myself) gets a good visual representation of what channels are active at a given time rather then picking out "Jeff vocal" from a sea of open faders. To some extent this mirrors a way I used to work in analogue...even there I'd often use the mute buttons less (given a small board without sufficient mute groups) rather than hit buttons on already-up faders.

One final aside: on a scene that, for example, starts with one or two lead vocals then has another two or three come in later, I'll often set the "secondary" vocal faders to move up a few dB above the "mute" setting, again so I have a visual cue as to which channels I have to bring up farther when they start to sing. Of course, this could also be done with another mid-song present scene...but l like doing it "hands on" sometimes.

Hope this makes sense and is helpful.

Bob

Edited to correct an unfortunate, potentially libellous, typo in mackerr's name.

Hi,

Sorry for hijacking this thread - well, it's not really a "hijack", more of a "unscheduled diversion...", basically on the same theme..

I've got roped in to a small local production later this year. Audio sources are likely to be 8x radio mics, 4x floats, a couple of Sm58s, and a stereo mix from the band.

I've got access to 2 very different mixers. One is a Mackie 1604pro - I know my way around that one fairly well. The other is a Yamaha Promix01 - one of their earlier digital offerings - with which I'm not very familiar.

Any thoughts on which would be best? In this application, one of the big benefits of the yamaha is the onboard fx and compression, whereas on the mackie that would have to be outboard. The advantage of the mackie is familiarity.

All comments and real-world experiences welcome!