I don't know too much about sound but I need a good mixing desk for a new theatre being built.

Most of the desks I've seen so far have too many microphone channels.

What I need is a mixer with at least 4 mic channels and 6 line in stereo channels or 12 line in mono, and a good XLR output with separate headphone output.

Any one know of a simile desk?

Thanks in advance


Danny boi

You are after a run of the mill 18 channel mixer.

Most 18chans I have seen, have 2 or 3 stereo, 14 or 12 mono.

4 mono channels to microphones (they plug into the XLR Low-Z input)

6/4 mono channels (they plug into 2 of the 5 1/4" High-Z inputs each and you change the stereo balance full left for one, full right for the other)

2/3 stereo channels for the remaining

and you have 2 spare mono inputs, either for an extra stereo source, giving you 7 stereo, or 2 more mono, giving 6 mono.

What you go for depends on budget and any other specs you have.

Obvioulsy I don't know the details of the install, but the usual problem is not having enough mic channels!. The last event I was involved with, which was a relatively small-scale school show, used 5 hardwired mics and 9 radios - and we didn't even think about micing the orchestra...

It's a new build. Aim higher than you think you need to. You don't HAVE to use all the channels all the time, but unless budget is ridiculously tight, it's best to start off with some spare capacity.

You never really know what your going to do. Best to get more channels then have to upgrade when you start doing more complex stuff. But this still does depend on budget.

Just to expand on what previous posters have said, on virtually every desk out there the "mic" channels are, in fact, mic/line channels. Sometimes there's an "A/B" switch between mic and line on each channel; other times it's just a matter of switching in a "pad". However, you generally have as many line inputs as you want.

Don't assume that you can only feed line inputs into something labelled "stereo". Most boards have a couple of these. Generally these let you put two halves of a stereo signal on a single fader, but often compromise by not having the same EQ and/or Aux facilities as the mic/line channels. Quite often, as a soundman, I'll use a pair of standard inputs in preference to the dedicated stereo ones.

The other thing I'd recommend is NOT to underestimate the number of mic channels you might want in the future. Obviously I don't know your situation so there might be special circumstances. However, I've seen a great many theatres say "we never use mics" only to do something unusual (a rock musical for example) and suddenly need different facilities. No, I'm not saying you have to rush out and buy a 52 channel Cadac...but I suggest you go for as much flexibility as you can afford.

One more comment is that, for theatre use, the number of outputs is often as important (or even more so) than the number of inputs. Besides a simple FOH pair, it's pretty common to need to provide monitor speakers, feeds to spot effects, feeds for video or backstage relay purposes, feeds to special effects boxes, feeds to multitrack record the show, etc etc.

As for what YOU need, it's hard to be specific without knowing more about your needs...and your budget. I guess what I can say is that the bargain basement end is Behringer (not great quality but cheap and decent value). Next step up (and a step I recommend you take) would be to Soundcraft or Allen & Heath who make far more robust, better sounding boards, still not costing the earth. And, if you have a large lottery grant, you can always dream about Midas and Cadac!

...and I won't confuse you by going onto my usual "digital is the way ahead" lecture!

Bob

Forgive me if this appears rude, but shouldn't someone who does know about sound be making the choice?!



I'd echo the other poster's comments. You can even use the Behringer line input mixer to give extra line inputs (duh!) and these come free with cornflake packets (almost). Getting extra good quality mic inputs is harder and more expensive.



The I'd suggest the Allen & Heath MixWizard WZ3 20s (look here).


"a figure of speech that expresses a resemblance between things of different kinds? " ;-)

Simon

Sorry, but why are you the one asking this question?

Not only are you merely a student at the school in question, but Whitelight has already been contracted to do it.
Given this, I'd be very surprised if the design is not already set in stone - schools budget fairly far in advance.

Ahhhhhhh White light doing a sound install

Sound shouldn't be left in the hands of lampies!Really it shouldn't!Seriously I know (a few) people who've had problems after an Lx company has done a sound install.

No White light are not doing the sound, that has been left to the Music dept. but he is not bothered with it as he is involved in his new sound studio and the theatre isn't going to be used by him anyways. The theatre is barely built. White light has not been given the plans yet, but the Lighting team (including me) know what they want in there though.

Our Drama Teacher doesn't know anything about DMX but as hes been waiting for his new theatre for centuries hes got a large budget. As the past years hes had next to nothing because the Head wants nothing to be spent until the theatre is built. So our teacher has given us a good idea of the building and told us to think bout it and come back with ideas.

But us Lighting crew people, the creative ones, want to know how everything works and how its all going to happen. The only thing is we don't have a sound crew so that's been left to the Music head of department which isn't getting anywhere.

Out of curiousity, who's doing the rest of the planning: mics, cables, amps, speakers, crossovers, EQ, etc etc etc? A single mixer (especially specced by somebody who doesn't think he needs mic inputs) does not make a sound installation.

We've been around this loop in the BR before, but I'm getting sick of the way money is wasted in the school system by people who don't know what they're doing....and students who think they know everything. I'm almost to the stage of wishing they'd pack up, convert the rooms to lecture halls and stop playing at theatre before the waste any more of my tax money.

Bob

The Head of Music teacher is doing most of the spec for the room but he is busy with specing his new sound studio and he is an expert at all this.


The mixer is just the start of it, we will sort out everything, like the amps are already bought, and the reason for the next-to-non mic channels is because the Music teacher has recommended that we don't prepare for many mic-channels as there will be a whole separate mixer for them which will not be fitted but portable, as the drama dept. don't need many mics as we don't use them in this size situation and the voice overs are all pre-recorded (in the new sound studio).


I'm not saying I know everything! I here to learn, that's why I'm asking questions.

And if there's no feed from the schools to Unis etc. there would be no technical theatre and therefor no job for you.

I think its important to differentiate the uses to which the theatre will be put.

In my experience, shcool theatres rarely (and in many cases, ever) put on full scale shows that warrant the expense of purchasing a large desk that can cater for such a thing. A couple of lectern mics is more the normal fare, and some playback. So a few mic channels and a few stereo ins is probably entirely adequate for the job. However, given that schools are fairly hostile places, I would suggest that something mechanically fairly tough would be advisable, which would rule out the single board desks without bolted in pots.

Drifting vaguely the number one thing that winds me up about desks is lack of stero inputs, getting more than four stereo channels as standard fitment seems next to impossible, and pairs of mono channels are an ugly substitute at best.

Oh dear...another disagreement, dbuckley! In my analogue days I used to quite often chose to use pairs of mono channels instead of the stereo ones because of the slightly increased flexibility in routing and level control. Where I did want true links, I'd use fader bridges like this:



Nowadays, on my Yamaha digital boards, there's not such thing as stereo channels anyway...but I can "pair" any combination of adjacent faders I want, often "vertically" so I only use on fader on a layer, paired with one the next layer down.

And, dannyboi, sorry you caught my rant about schools. Of course I want them to keep doing theatre: my 17 year old daughter is head of sound at her school this year! However, I hope you share my frustration about how often money is wasted because systems are not properly planned by people who understand what they're doing.

Bob

I must disagree with you on this, dependent on the desk I am using I MUCH prefer to have stereo channels broken down into two faders. Main reasoning behind this is because I have individual control over the input gain for each side of the track I.e. left & right. The amount of material I have used in the past where everything sounds like its been panned over way to much to one side, thus having separate control over left and right means that I can adjust as needed!

However, I know on some desks, for example A&H their stereo input channel has two gain controls per channel, one for left and one for right! So on the rare occasion I do use A&H I know I do not need to consider breaking the stereo input!

I suppose it is a personal choice (or sound designers)- and what sounds best to you!

Ben.

Very nice dear. Do you have something similar for the EQ and sends

All of which leads me to <rant> number two - why is it that everyone assumes that desks with small numbers of channels need no routing flexibility at all... grrr </rant>

Digital is the answer though in the word of theatre. Digital always gives you instant recall, MIDI and VCAs irrespective of desk size.

Awwww...and I didn't know you cared! I'd move in with you but I couldn't bear a country that thinks Steinlager is beer! As for the EQ and sends, nope...but like BenWall I find the advantages of two discrete channels outweigh the disadvantages.



On this I couldn't agree more. It's almost two years since I've had to do a show on an analogue console and I never want to go back. I'm doing things on my 19 inch wide DM1000 that I couldn't even consider on my old Soundcraft that was several times as large!

Bob

Can't beat a DM1000... Love them!

Ben.

Umm, on all the desks I've seen, the stereo channels have been severely crippled, with no sweepable controls on the EQ for example, and only able to route to a couple of aux sends. FWIW....


David

So thats it, the OP should tell the school to get a DM1000.

There, wasn't that easy

Again, a little further what do you guys do for more mic channels on your DMs?


'Tis true, you almost always lose EQ facilities with stereo channels, but the routing is normally the same, there is a balance control rather than a panpot to deal with mismatched gains. But normally the stereo channels are used with either playbacks or true electronic instruments, which in my experience require waaay less EQing than anything with a mic in front of it.

Yup...so long as YOU teach them how to use it! Seriously, I'd think the learning curve would be a bit TOO steep for somebody who didn't already have the basics on an analogue board down pat. That aside, I'd say digital is definitely the way to go for the future.



Well, in my case I've got two MY16AT cards and four Behringer ADA8000s. Yeah, I know there are nicer mic preamps out there...but for SR use I find them just fine. The only drawback is having the inputs on the front panel makes the patching look at bit messy at times. I should say that I also have a DM2000, so the expansion cards and ADA8000s get swapped around as required. Running the DM1000 with all 48 channels populated is not something I like to do all the time!

Bob

Probably simpler to read it for yourself than trying to write it all down!!

DM1000 Expansion

Ben.

P.S. Bob- you lucky bugger, I would love a 2000!

Yep, had had a quick look at the Yammy site, but was wondering the real deal was, and yep, Behringer ADAs. I had a sneaking suspicion, as even people who bash B quite hard sometimes have to quietly admit that they use the ADAs...

And with that, we return to the scheduled entertainment.

Thanks for the encouragement. And just so you can stop worrying, every bit of theatre equipment in our school has been bought from profits from productions or donations from parents. Your tax money (and mine) is safe in that respect at least.

You'll note that, a couple of posts later, I apologised to the original poster.

However, your school is very much the exception to the rule if technical gear is not purchased out of tax money. Clearly, I can't comment on HOW you've spent your money, but if you have to raise it yourself I suspect you might take a bit more care in what you spend it on.

My rant came after, over a period of a couple of months, reading a series of posts in here about equipment for schools. The ones that post in here tend NOT to be people who should be, in any way, responsible for specifying spending. They're invariably enthusiastic but just as invariably do not have the necessary knowledge to properly design and specify a sound system. I mention sound because that's my personal area of knowledge; I suspect lighting people may have the same issues.

To give a case in point: I have a 17 year old daughter working on her AS Level in Theatre Studies. They have what SHOULD be a lovely theatre, purpose built only a few years ago, and a good range of equipment. However, the whole theatre area was planned by teachers who are more comfortable analysing Artaud than with anything technical. The "technical spec" was handled by the husband of the head of drama, a man with moderate experience in AmDram but not much more. The results:

-the stage is a great size, but the wings are less than a meter wide.

-there is no way for cast in costume to access toilets without walking through the lobby

-no thought was given to acoustics. the auditorium is a rectangular box with hard surfaces and badly prone to standing waves. I hate to think what the RT60 figure is.

-the raked seating is retractable to make a studio space but there is no safety interlock on the two doors at the rear...when the seats are back it's possible to open them and step into an immediate 30 foot drop. Chains and padlocks are now used, but this need was found the "hard way", not planned.

-despite the theatre being only about 5 years old, they're on their second mixing desk and this one is failing too. A far better, longer lasting one would have only cost 20-30% more than what they've bought each time.

-they're on their second or third batch of radio mics. The present ones are from 3 different manufacturers and, due to tuning limitations cannot all be used at once without intermod problems.

-the speakers purchased were more "speaker on a stick" types bracketed to the wall and do not provide proper coverage of the hall...they're also located BEHIND the main playing area (the stage has a thrust-style apron.

I could go on. I'm sure they think they've been saving money by the DIY approach, but all I see is horrendous waste. BTW, in response to the inevitable question, I HAVE offered to advise, but have been told that "politics" would make that hard. AFAIK, the politics are that the Head of Drama doesn't want a row with her adviser hubby!

This thread follows a similar pattern: a student asking a seemingly innocuous question which, when discussed, lead to the revelation that a facility is being built (if the OP is accurate) without professional advice on sound, only some rather suspect input from a music teacher whose priority is a recording studio, not a theatre.

Sorry, but it sound like another recipe for waste and disappointment to me.

Bob

Hope this doesn't appear too rude, but as just mentioned in the lighting forum...

...the same is true of sound

seems obvious to me.. what they really need is a midas XL8.

I started to reply, but didn't post it... meanwhile Bob summarised most of my thoughts.

I teach a broad range of subjects, mainly in the field of electroacoustics. I also run a small business that supports churches in the region through audio system hire, sales and installation.

Some customers come to me with an idea of what they want - perhaps based on an advert in the Sunday magazines (it was next to the BMW advert, so it must sound good!), a special clearance offer from one of the cut price catalogues or impressions of a system seen elsewhere. Some do not have a clue, and could be persuaded to spend £50 or £5000. They wouldn't know if it was a bargain or a rip off.

I believe that a careful needs analysis and a system specification which meets the customer's present and future requirements is a fundamental necessity. This then should lead to a design that provide a holistic answer to these requirements - I.e. it answers the technical, aesthetic, learning curve, build quality and capital/maintenance cost factors.

As others have attested, this process is circumvented in many different situations, and it means wasted money, a less than optimal training/teaching/user experience and short lived systems that are not fit for purpose.

One American audio consultant summed up this process quite succinctly in this document.

I do not want to discourage people, merely to help them get the best for their particular circumstances!

Simon

ROFL! You can wait for ages for a Jim Brown URL to come along, and then two come at once!

(See my post of a couple of hours ago in the thread about problems with a radio mic!)

Bob

Soundcraft ES, £271, 4 mono and 10 stereo
Soundcraft M8, £299, 8 mono and 4 stereo

Job done.