This year my school is doing a production of a musical, and whilst I'm already helping out with both sound and lights (a combined 'technical crew'), I've been asked by the teacher who produces a DVD of the show to sell to the cast to help him to record the sound.

For the show, we will be miking up all the principals with radio mics, to reinforce them over a (rather too!) large band/orchestra. The layout of the space, a hall which we 'convert' into a theatre is shown in this (rough) plan:

The hall is quite tall (2 1/2 to 3 stories) and most of the walls are brick and plaster. There will be a full audience on raked seating which should help to damp it down.

Last year the teacher used a cheap dynamic microphone which he had bought from a Hifi type shop on the lighting bar across the front of the stage, but this picked up too much of the orchestra (especially brass instruments) and it really ruined the DVD (from my point of view anyway)

So, my rough plan, so far, is to have one(?) microphone somewhere towards the middle of the hall (strung between the beams?) and to record this separately from an Aux send from the sound desk for the principals' microphones (using Audacity?). Afterwards, I hope to mix this two together and balance it all out.

Finally, to my questions:
1. Will this work?
2. What sort of microphone(s) should I use? Where?
3. What sort of sound card/interface should I use to record this with:
A) a laptop, or
B) a desktop?


PS. I may be able to borrow an old microphone which my dad has, although he only bought it as a consumer, he has a tendency to overdo things like this, so it may be usable. All I can find out about it is that it's a Sony ECM-99A 'one point stereo electret condenser microphone'


EDIT: If this is completely the wrong idea, please do say so, I seem to have tried to pretend to be more knowledgeable than I am in my original post. (Always a bad idea!)

Two things really leap out.

1) Has someone paid for the rights to record the show? From memory the rights holder for K&I are the sort that will crucify you for recording it for whatever purpose without explicit consent!

2) Stick the stereo pair out front, a long way, to get a "natural balance". Take a send from each of the vocal mics and mix these with the ambient pair to a stereo pair with a separate small mixer. Quick & dirty but better than nothing.

Best of luck on both counts!

The Sony ECM-99 was in it's day, a pretty decent stereo microphone, but the snag with your idea is that if you move the mic away from the performers, then the band win, even more - but maybe this, for your 2 channel idea is actually good? Audacity is a ok - but how many inputs can you get into the system at one time? Ideally, I'd probably record the band with a flown stereo pair, in x/y, or m/s if you have the correct kit. On top of this I'd take a feed of all the radio mics individually, plus 3 or 5 pcc's on the floor. I've recorded lots like this - but unless you have multi-track kit that really works, the result may well be pretty poor. Don't forget that any mics used to pick up the band will also hear the PA - possibly causing some pretty nasty effects - colouration at the least, cancellation and overloud solists the other. If you are stuck with stereo recording, then your mono feed from the auxes plus a mono band mic may work - but my guess is it isn't going to impress anyone. Can you beg some decent kit?

I probably should have added, that I expect to have about £100-£150 to play with, but the more change the better! This can be used to hire or buy, but bear in mind that the best soundcard I can expect to be already installed is of the 'Soundblaster' order, if there is one at all.

Although it would be nice to do it 'properly', it's not clear how 'good' a PC I will be provided with. In any case, the main objective is to improve on last year's recording, which used a microphone built into the side of a handycam.

Andrew, when you say 'a long way out in front' do you mean close to or far from the stage?

If you are looking for quality from the typical £15 soundblaster card, then I'm assuming you are using tin cans and string for your radio mics as the quality will be pretty poor. Also - attempting to record audio on whatever pc they give you is a recipe for disaster - it only takes one glitch to ruin the track. Don't forget that audacity is not designed to record stereo for a solid 60 min or so continuous track - that isn't what it is for. Buffering will be vital - also disk access may be a problem. I'd seriously consider using a CD recorder, a DVD recorder, or even an MD machine. A mixer or spare desk channel to get the out front mic(s) up to line level will also be needed - don't forget the average computer card doesn't handle mics very well at all. The idea for a separate mixer to balance the stereo out front with your radio mics is solid advice - the biggest drawback is the PC element - don't do it, would be my advice - use a hardware system

Thank you for all the advice so far, not sure that the sarcasm is necessarily warranted, what I meant was that the budget may need to be spent on a new soundcard, but perhaps that wasn't clear.

If I were to use a computer, would either of these be appropriate?
http://www.guitarampkeyboard.com/options.php?id=10856
http://www.guitarampkeyboard.com/options.php?id=651

If not, what sort of cost would be involved in buying (thought not!) or hiring suitable hardware recorders? If this is within the range of my budget, what specific items should I look for?

Recording a performance which includes amplified sound too is never going to be as easy a task as a purely acoustic set. I would personally prefer to record a multitrack version and mix it to stereo afterwards. You would need to get individual feeds of the radio mics as together with a mix of the chorus/unmiked cast and the band or depending on the line up even mic/DI some of the band individually and add that to the multitrack.

This would assume your PA desk has direct outs and mean hiring something like an Alesis HD24 or similar to record it onto. Even a hard-disc based portastudio would do the job if you could borrow one of them from a neighbouring school/college. Record it on the night, mix it the next day, the hire costs needn't be too high...

Again, to agree with Paul, the computer, audio interface and software have to be rock solid to be reliable enough to faultlessly record an entire performance so buying a new soundcard/interface may not be the simple solution for this.

Sorry if this rambles, just some late night thoughts!

Hmmm...
If your reference to sarcasm was aimed at the idea of using tin cans as recording sources, I think you'd best take it as I'm sure it was intended! Cheap SB sound cards are quite honestly the equivalent of cans & string! OK, maybe it was a little sarcastic BUT I'd say that it was intended to get the message across - and wasn't aimed at ruffling feathers.

My personal view of your needs is that for £150 you're never to be able to hire or buy enough decent quality kit to make a Hollywood quality movie. What I'd say you need to ask yourself (and the teacher/school) is what are you prepared to accept? If all you want is a visual and fair representation of the school show for mementos for the cast then you'll get by with a simple cheap & cheerful solution. And the best bet for that would be to hang a couple of decent quality, directional hired mics out front of the stage, or alternatively some well sound-insulated (lots of foam underneath) plate mics. Hang a crossed pair over the orchestra, then pre-mix the lot with maybe a pickup from the radio mics (though don't overdo them or it'll sound crap in the balance with anyone else who doesn't have a radio). And unless you have access to some quality video/audio editing software, I'd suggest simply recording the whole thing onto the master video tape - spend some budget looking for a half-decent quality VCR.

Oh, and I'd also echo the first comment about recording rights - if you haven't sought permission, be aware that whilst it's unlikely anyone will seek you or the school out BUT if at any time the DVD/tape is seen by someone who decides to 'shop' you then there can be sever penalties for breach of copyright.

TD

Both of these are good sound cards but they have very different functionality. It concerns me that you're asking for a comparison of the two.

The Mobile Pre is effectively a preamp for only two MIC level signals to be interfaced into a computer. The Delta 44 is an interface the allows recording of up to 4 LINE level signals. Which is right for you depends on how you decide to work.

For the last five years or so I've mixed a panto and have been asked to provide sound for both the video relay to the bar, dressing rooms etc. and also for a nightly recording of the show. Since this situation is analagous to yours, perhaps it would be useful to tell you how I do it.

Like your show, the principles are all radio miked but these are used for musical numbers only. Normally for musicals I'd augment the radio mics with PCC-160s across the front of the stage, but the peculiar layout of the panto theatre makes this impossible.

So, my solution to both the relay sound and reinforcement of chorus numbers is to hang cardioid mics (in my case AKG451EBs). I use a total of four: two slung more or less in line with the stage apron, angled downwards at about 45 degrees, and two more about a third of the way upstage from the proc arch, again angled back.

I feed the video people using two auxes. The four hanging mics are fed pre-fade (so they're there all the time) and the radio mics are fed post fade so they're only up when actually in use. Where I use effects on the radio mics (echo on the evil ones, reverb on love songs) the returns for these are fed to the aux as well as are all sound effects.

For the video relay the two auxes are combined; for the recording they're kept seperate so they can be balanced a bit more accurately while being edited.

In my case the band is miked/DI'd and put into the main mix, but for the relay/recording purposes there is so much spill into the hanging mics that I tend not to include anything from them.

Crude, but it's at least better than a single mic on a camera!

Now, some of the reasoning. First, although the representation of the sound would in theory be better with mics farther back, as has been pointed out, this position will be "band heavy" and often make it hard to hear dialogue. Second, having fixed auxes is fairly essential since the main job is to mix for the audience present...too many times I've seen FOH mixes go wrong when the op is playing with a recording feed.

Now, I'll go out on a limb. The PC recording could work. If you go that route, I'd use the Delta 44 and four auxes. Aux 1 (pre) the downstage mics. Aux 2 (pre) the upstage mics Aux 3 (post) the radio mics Aux 4 (post) any sound effects. This of course assumes you have enough auxes! Clearly you could use just two with hanging mics on one and RF and effects on the other.

Several things: First, if you record on a PC make sure you do a test at LEAST as long as the performance you plan to record. File systems have limits and multitrack recordings can hit them. Second, use a "clean machine" (ie nothing else running in background) and turn off things like screen savers and system noises.

Third..repeating what you've already heard...make sure you have rights to do any recording. Publishers really DO sue even amateur or school groups caught recording without permission.

Good luck

Bob

mic selection. 2x pzm's on the front of stage 2x mx202's floating midstage and a nice big EQ to balance out fb problems.
should give a reasonable sound. perhaps an akg c1000 or 4000 over the orcestra to get a mini line of them which is piped straight to recorder but not to the PA.
you have my sympathies on this it's not gonna be easy.

First thing - I think it was me who came accross sarcastic, for once, this wasn't meant - appologies.

The thing that really worries me is the computer.

I have a suspicion that the idea is to get somebody to fund the computer kit so you can use it for something else later?

If you are open to suggestions - then the cost of the pc, an extra HD - NEVER use the system drive, always use a dedicated drive 2 (or 3 or 4 etc)

These things add up though - the comments on the M Audio kit make sense, but overall, the quality is much better than the cheap card I misunderstoof that you were considering.

If you have this dosh available then some questions - you are getting towards multitrack input price area - I'd certainly suggest this as a way to go - get as much separation as you can and edit and mix later. If you can't do this, then I would scrap the PC idea and record direct to CD using hardware. Less hassle and better reliability.

using great mic technique, and top class equipment doesn't mean you'll get a great recording in your example - the venue, the sound sources and live mixing going on all detract from your goal - good quality recording.

The better the kit you find/fund for the recording the worse the job it will do if you cannot set it well and keep it set well for the duration of the show. If you are the tech crew you will have other show critical jobs to do also. Start with a single stereo mic at a typical "audience ears" position and record that onto a simple recorder. If you have time to sit at a desk and keep an ear on a multi mic setup so much the better.

Its the single mic recording of my old school shows that survives! as our efforts with several were not worthy. (done on a Ferrograph in mono!)