I'm wondering what everyones opinion is on the usage of plexi glass drum shields. I've heard both positive and negative things about them so I want to see what the general consensus is.

I would be using it in a school auditorium with bad accoustics.

Also, if I do decide that I want one, is it possible to just make one myself or is that a bad call.

Personally I think they help to "clean up" the mix,by reducing spill from the kit in to other area's of the stage.
Saw (and used) a "home made" one and as far as I could hear it was just as good as a manufactured one!
Although the person that made it was good at that sort of thing,unlike me!

If you are prepared to mic the kit, then yes a drum screen will be a big help to you. You might get complaints from band members who feel "disconnected" from the drummer, but most bands I've worked with have thanked me when I've provided a screen.

As for brands, well I've had good experience with both "no-name" perspex screens and with Clearsonics products.

Hope this helps

C.

We had some custom made ones on my last ship when our previous ones broke. The carpenters made them out of inch-thick plexiglass that they had lying around. They were brilliant accoustically, but were a 4-man lift for each panel!

Wow, Bryson. One inch thick.....luxury...just the job!
I guess if you are going to knock some up yourself, just don't use the really thin stuff otherwise you might end up with a sort of 'wobble board' effect!

I have used them on occasions when doing 'unplugged' style shows that were being recorded. They were a BIG help since we had a string section on stage too. The drummer did mention that he thought the drums seemed loud to him, I guess from very close reflections that he wasn't used to in a live environment.

We use a Clearsonics screen around our kit at church and the back wall behind the drummer is sound absorbent boarding (the name escapes me!).
They definitely help in keeping drum sound out of other mic's which is great!
I have noticed that with the screen the drums are a lot louder, and I have heard this from other drummers too and have on a couple of occasions given the drummer headphones because of this.

On some of the musicals I have done we have made a perc booth up using half inch ply cut to about 3ft high and 2ft wide backed with acoustic tiles, then cut some perspex, attached that to the top of the, made about 8 of them, then cable tied them together which gives you a flexible enclosure! works wonders!

Maybe you should have used some of Scotty's "transparent aluminium" instead...I hear it's stronger and lighter!

Seriously, I'm a big fan of putting shields round the drums, then miking everything when working with a miked up band. Getting rid of a significant amount of spill from the drums into the other instrument mics really cleans up the mix.

Like others here, I've used both the specialist Clearsonics screen and more homemade solutions...both seemed to work well.

Bob

Transparent Aluminium ~= Polycarbonate. Ain't cheap though, but by heck is it strong and tough.
It's what they make riot shields and bullet-proof glass out of...

I've been after one for ages... - mainly due to the cymbal Spill - nightmare trying to get vox to cut through the mix when they're standing infrot of the drummer on a small stage!

Where can they be gotten from?
How much do they cost?

(I'm sure I should know the answer to these questions, but when there's a forum full of users, then why bother? - just ask! - that's my philosophy ).

The church I learnt sound at, had and probably still does have drum screens which are something like 75mm thick on their bases, which are probably made from plywood and are full of Rockwool for good ol' absorption, and then the perspex slots in to the tops.

Si

So if I wanted to make a drum shield, what materials should I purchase. Let's try to keep in mind that the school is on a tight budget.

We always use a 1676mm high, 6 segment clearsonics screen for our drum kit, coupled with accoustic absorbtion on the back wall. Works wonders, however, close-miking the kit is very important as while the screen does help reduce spill onstage, it all reflects back onto the kit so you tend to get a lot of drums bleeding into one anothers mics if you arent careful with placement.
Also, I have seen so many people try and use serious drum screens with big wedge monitors behind them! This doesnt often work very well because unless you have a very focused dispersion on the box it can have a tendancy to bleed into the drum mics. We use a IEM system with a good ol' pair of HD25's

So, drum screens are great - as long as you understand the other issues that go along with them.

Cheers

Unless you have, like Brysons brilliant one, plexi/perspec lying about then cheap is not a word to use here. It is VERY expensive stuff, needs very delicate handling and careful storage. Even drilling mounting holes in it is not easy - Hence why one I made about 3 years ago had very odd radiused corners by the time it was finished. Drilling near edges is a crack waiting to happen.

Thanks BlueShift, I hadn't really thought about some of those points, especially the floor wedges.

Also, I realize that it won't be cheap, but would I basically just need about .5 inch plexiglass and then some hinges and screws?

I'd suggest using polycarbonate instead of plexiglass (polystyrene), because it's one heck of a lot tougher - it's what they make riot shields out of, so you aren't going to break it even if you hit it with a sledgehammer or drop it off the balcony.
Polycarb is also extremely easy to cut and drill - just use normal HSS bits and a medium-toothed jigsaw.

PC is more expensive though, and more prone to scratches if mishandled.

So you use a drum screen to keep the noise down and it makes the drummer play so loud he needs ear protection...

The drum screen was invented to keep guitar noise out of the drum mics. People watched Hillsong (or other “on TV church’s”) using them and thought, they are using them to keep the drum sound down, so we will do the same. People have got drum screens all wrong. They are used for broadcasting and it’s to stop stage sound getting to the drum mics for a final TV mix, not the other way around.

If you are a drummer and can’t play to the correct level, then get off stage, you should not be there.
Would you have a guitarist on stage that could not play all the chords needed for the song?

Young drummers need to learn dynamics, it does them no good to try the "duct-tape" approach of fixing a problems.

The drum screen creates a physical barrier between you and the band and more important you and the audience.

You ask a singer to stand behind a "Singer-Screen" and watch how offended they are at the mere suggestion.
Sound men need to get off stage and back being the desk, we make the music, its up to them to amplify it (We are talking live sound not studio)

Drum Screens need to be removed from all Churches and stages.
Learn to play your instrument and stop taking short cuts. If you are on your kit and you are looking at a drum screen you have failed as a drummer.

The heart of the band is what is most important, not some HI-FI stereo surround sound church service.

Gotta agree with a lot of Kiwi here.

However.... when I have a string section on stage with a drummer, trust me, I am not worried about the strings bleeding into the drum mics now am I?
In general.... I dont like to use screens.

1. My job as a sound engineer is a job of sound reinforcement not sound replacement. I want to hear what the acoustic snare drum sounds like and maybe make it a little bigger (sometimes not). I dont really want it behind plastic.

2. Good drummers will play in the space they are in. Terl Bryant talks about "not playing round in square space and not playing square in a round space". Phil Crabbe plays with such control and grove... I would be insulting him with screens. I name two pro drummers working in the scene that most likes drum screens.

3. If you address the acoustic of your stage and the venue then most of your "loud drum kit" issues go away in a holistic way.

4. The spirit and joy of a band can and should be the drummer, again I would agree with Kiwi, the plastic sends all sorts of mixed messages.

If you do so this, please pay particular attention to what is behind the drummer. You need to absorb the reflections that are now heading to the back wall of the stage or band area. BWS drape will do it or you can use the Clearsonic Sorber type panels. I am happy to help with Cleasonic supply.. PM me... if you must ;-)

The new panels have slits at floor level so you can push cheese crackers through at feeding time....

M

Wondered if you were going to chip in, Mark, as I appreciate hearing these views at the March WorshipCentral workshop you gave (which was fab, by the way).

My one experience playing with a drummer behind screens was a nightmare. We were playing a wedding reception in a venue with a house kit behind screens and a decent PA, BUT no soundcheck opportunity. Without enough drums in the foldback, had to spend half the gig (I play bass) facing the drummer to ensure we all kept together as there just wasn't enough coming from him.

See, the thing is, its all well and good saying its to keep stage noise out of the drum mics, and that if a drummer can't control the kit and play suitably for the room he or she should get off the stage, but that's not going to be over productive when it comes to show time.

I fully agree with what you are saying, they SHOULD be able to control things, but what if they can't? What if they aren't very good? its not my fault, If I'm just there to mix the show, I may not know the band, I have a job to do and I can't help it is the people on stage are not good enough to be able to control their instruments. When you are told "you'll have to turn those drums down they're far too loud" before you've even powered up the amps, what are you supposed to do? You can tell the drummer to play quietly, he wont, and its clearly your fault as a sound engineer.

I'd hate to be playing drums and be behind a screen, yes I agree that you are lacking in skills if you can't control the kit, but when you are a sound engineer working with an unknown band, there is nothing you can do about it, you have to struggle, put a screen in, or use other methods rather than expect the drummer to play quietly.


Rob

I would have to disagree with a lot of the above. In my experience, the number of drummers who can keep their volume down is very small, and the number who can do this and still make the drums sound good is even smaller. Quiet drums are appropriate in jazz music, but not so much in other styles, you have to hit them!

This is not just a problem with drums. Guitar amps often have to be loud to make the correct sound. You can't get proper grunt out of a Leslie without it being cranked. With these though, you can often simply move them off stage, and dispense with the problem. Drums though, obviously have to be on stage, so then drum sheilds are the only real solution. And they work. On one show I do, we use the shields not to reduce the drum sound for the audience, but behind the drums to reduce the bleed into the choir mics.

I wish more people would carry them, as I find them a particularly effective tool to reduce stage noise, and drum bleed into any kinds of surrounding microphones. Don't you hate that cymbal bleed thing that you get when you put the vocal mics close infront of the drums?

It's a shame they're so stunningly expensive though!

As to the artistic side - I don't really like cageing up drummers, however with a smallish pit it can make things slightly more pleasant for the other muso's and can help keep their overall monitoring level down - which in turn helps out at FOH.
There have been occasions, such as a tour I worked on last year, were the genuinley made everything a lot easier to manage and actually (I believe) contributed to the sound.

On a more practical level...



May I suggest the construction of hinged wooden frames (2"x2") to around half the height of the screen, whcih the pc or perspex slide into, no drilling also makes it easier to tour, (smaller sections weighing less) and regular shapes which can have padded bags and be flightcased (saves their cosmetic apearance too) It also means you can fit some rockwoll and some tat into the frame to help control the reflections. If you want to go to town you can even tour a small stand alone helmholtz (sp) resonator to stick behind the whole arrangement to help control the reflections created by the screen.

That being said, I personaly don't worry too much about relections as usually when you stick a drum kit beneath an empty(ish) grid on an open space (stage) with a very high ceiling, the onstage sound can be fairly difficult to control anyway.

Just my 2p anyway!

Martin.

Ooooh posts with differing opinions with passion! I do like to read them occasionally

Helmholtz was spelt correctly Martin.

Anyway, I have to say I've had good result with the Clearsonic screen I have. I use it mainly for one particular band who I engineer for, their drummer has lots of cymbal going on, and he is a passionate drummer. The Stages we've been on mainly incorporate smallness in their design and so putting the drummer behind the vocal mics was something I learnt not to do. Vocal mics were being driven quite hard to get anything useable out of but the amount of cymbal spill rendered vocal clarity and cut-through to almost nil.

So, we started setting up the stage 'Incubus Style' with the drummer to the side/back corner, which, worked to a certain extent but still had issues. The (un-mic'd) acoustic energy from cymbals is high and it eats into the vocal sibilance frequency range. Not good in small stage / small venue venues.

The Vocalists in this band, the lead singer is Male with a muddy yet harsh voice, and the main BV is also a keyboardist with a soft though gorgeous voice (female). So neither voice is easy to get through above the acoustic stage noise.

Out went around £450ish to buy a 5 panel 1676mm high Clearsonic and carry case (and some Setware gloves to handle the screen).

Mr. Drummer man wasn't looking forward to being behind the screen, but he told me afterwards that it wasn't as bad as he thought. So we've used it ever since, when I've been engineering for them. FOH was much easier to get vocals forward in the mix. Much Easier. I think the whole band have benefited from it. Even the guitarist wants one for his amp now.

I've recently been giving Mr. Drummer man a pair of DT100s (via a Presonus HP4) as his monitors instead of a wedge, and he was instantly sold on them too. Bonus! He has a metronome through earphones underneath the Beyer Headphones and he can have is monitors much lower.

As a side note, this is a band who don't often get given much if any in the way of monitoring, so they're a tight / easy-going band who're a blessing to work with

Anyway, this is one case where the drum screens have benefited all.

There's my story.

Si

surely the screen will make the drum "Seem" lounder, by the sound normally dissapated out, is now reflecterd back at the drummer as Im pretty sure plexiglass, or other drum screen used for live isnt going to absorb the sound.

Yes, the perspex reflects the drum sound back at the drummer, which does have the benefit result of him playing quieter, add to this the effect of the direct acoustic sound of the drums being lessened in the audience, gives more control to the FOH engineer.
Downsides are that the band onstage will feel cut off from the drummer, and so they will need more drums in hier monitors - so you have to be careful how you place their wedges, or you can end up with just as much drum noise coming from the wedges as you had from the drums before the screen was introduced.
You also need a sound system and mics good enough to reproduce the sound of the drums well.
Personally I love using them, the only problems is persuading bands that they ae a good thing.
Along with clearsonics screens, I have used ones made onboard ship by the carpenters (just as good) and also used Rat Stands' brass blowback screens to stop cymbal noise deafening a brass player who was right next to the ride in the pit.

My band doesn't feel cut off, there's still more than enough acoustic energy kicking around the stage. The only drums they don't like, are the electronic drum kits. It's just not the same. Beneficial in some ways to the engineer and getting stage sound REALLY quiet, but just wrong.

Wow, that is a lot of replies.

If I can quote i_hate_fisicks "Quiet drums are appropriate in jazz music, but not so much in other styles, you have to hit them!"
I am a drummer and I do get what you are saying, but you can tune your drums to sound fuller at a softer level. YES, I SAID TUNE DRUMS! I know that may be a new concept for a lot of drummers and sound men but it is true. Drums need to be tuned for each room they are in, just as an EQ needs to be set for each room. Duct-Tape is not tuning drums

One of you said you spend £450 on a screen, well how much have you spent on the drums to get them to sound right?

I believe the "drum screen mentality" was made so popular by the lack of quality drummers, we brought this plague upon ourselves.
Sound engineering has advanced so much over the last 5 years and I feel that overall, the drummers out there have not kept up.

We will, im sure, continue to wear this burden until we learn to get the best from our instrument in every room and every show.

You are all right, sound engineers have a job to do, a very important job to do and can’t spend all day trying to get the drums to sound right. This is the drummer’s job. You all need to get ruthless with your drummers, make them tune their kits, make them have the correct heads and tell them, YOUR TO LOUD or too quite!

Here is one thought for all sound men - I play in a church of about 300, if everyone in that church was singing at a normal to loud level, you would not hear the drums, they would be drowned out! I hope one day that a sound man will invent a "Congregation Screen" to stop the crowd volume spilling into the precious vocal mics.

Just to throw my 2p's in. I was on an event last week, we had a small brass section, 1 flute mic, 5 vocal mics and a choir to name a few. We screened the drummer and the percussionist and the FOH engineer was greatly blessed as he didn't have drums down every other mic. It's not that the drummer was uncontrollable (in fact quite the opposite) it wa just that with that many mics on stage they would all become drum and percussion overheads and that would make the drum level uncontrollable. This is the main reason I use drum screens, not to make the drums quieter off stage but to stop the spill into every other mic on stage. When your maxing out a 48ch board (the majority of which are mics) this is important. I have also worked on events where we've shielded the choir instead to avoid drum spill.

Sure as the monitor engineer I did have to put a small amount of Kick, snare and hats in some peoples monitors but that was nothing compared to the spill that would have happened and the complaints I would have had from musicians asking me to turn the drums down (even when they weren't in their monitor). Oh and as an aside, I had the privelage of being on the unshielded side of the kit and it was loud but I wouldn't have said it was obscene however there was a large amount of drape behind her. I have been into venues where they've had drum screens but the drummer was in front of a reflective wall and the sound was very loud. That venue have since put some absorbancy behind the drums to solve this problem.

A slight aside, try putting something absorbant behind the kit before you put a screen in you may find the level drops significantly anyway.

dan





Just a comment on this, if the people are so loud in your church that your having problems with the drums not being loud enough, brilliant! That's how it should be, we as engineers should have to turn it up because the people are so exuberant in their praise!

Dan,

You sound like a rubbish monitor engineer! ;-)
Get a proper job.

M

Yes that was me.

I am the sound engineer, I bought it as a tool for an effective use. I bore the cost. I wanted to. I will defend my choice, even if I have the Cruciatus Curse inflicted on me.

He is the drummer he has over £2k's worth of very nice Pearl Masters with lots of nicely tuned gorgeous sounding drums on it. Same with the cymbals. The drums aren't the issue for me when engineering for this band, it's the cymbals.

If it works, then I'm happy. It does, so I am

I would have left out the word 'monitor' there ;o)

As for screens, they can work well but it's all about preference. Personally I prefer the sound of drums without screens and have been at gigs when I had to ask for them to be removed as they wouldn't have worked with the bands sound. For real sensitive situations they can help. The only time we have used screens on a sunday morning at our church the vocalists commented on how much easier they could hear their vocals in the monitors. So, whilst bringing the drum level down at FOH it also helped us bring the monitor levels down. A drummer must either use ear plugs or in-ears to make sure they don't damage their hearing though.

Mark, you mention Teryl Bryant and him talking about playing quietly where needed. He's a great drummer, but I've yet to hear him play anything other than really loud when he's been with Matt Redman!

Adam

Drum screens are good, if used in the right context. I'd only used them when I had to, if I could get away with the louder ambient drum sound then I wouldnt use the screens.

heres why: as soon as you put a screen round your kit you'll find your mic technique will have to change drastically. Your gates will all of a sudden be stuck open, your snare will be in your kick mic, your kick in your snare mic and everything going everywhere! basically, what im saying is, be very aware that you will need to tweak your mic placement to maintain a quality sound when adding a drum screen. Close mic-ing becomes more essential and you may find you need extra mics you werent using before.

However, once you've sorted these isues - on smaller stages or with loud drummers your screens will give you a lower overall stage volume which might be just what you need for those vocal and instrument mics...

Again I am blown away by all your comments, this is the best drum screen discussion I have ever had.

To basilbrush1982, if I was playing with a brass and wind section I would first look at what kit I would use (I know many drummers don’t have much of a choice) but if it was a smaller stage, most probably wooden floors and the focus was on the performance and not on interaction, I would play behind a screen.

I am a staunch anti-screen-ist and my views are based on both personal and professional ideals, but, I do realize that, yes, I am just the drummer. Im only one part of a larger band, hopefully trying to accomplish something bigger than both my opinions and the bands. So with that frame of mind, I can see how screens can be a very helpful and in some cases, a necessary tool. On the other hand, sound men also need to realize that they are only one piece also and to what point do you sacrifice 100% crystal clear sound for real feel and emotion?

However, I am strongly apposed to the misuse and overuse of screens especially in churches. There is a huge “Monkey-see Monkey Do” attitude out there and now its almost at the point of DRUM SET + CHURCH = DRUM SCREEN.

This is clearly wrong and this is where I take a stand.

5 piece rock style bands do not need one. 20 piece band with a wind section, maybe. A large choir, strings and wind backing a particular singer… ok

Also basilbrush1982 your comment about the "Congregation Screen" was very well said. I am looking forward to that problem and I hope it comes soon!

To Mr.Si “£2k's worth of very nice Pearl Masters” that’s all well and good, but does he tune it right? (im not saying he cant, im only saying that with the right heads and the right tuning you can make a Pearl Export sound very nice in any room too)

and with the right heads and the right tuning you can make any kit sound rubbish by not playing it right. there are lots of factors to take into consideration. Its the same with any instrument, brass, reed, wind, piano's, the voice. I've got a 3 and a half octave range in normal voice and I can hold a note, but I just sound rubbish.

Drum screens are a tool, they have their uses, they must do or they wouldn't be on the market, and when you need that tool you use it, when you don't need that tool it stays where it is. You don't put a compressor on a channel because you have one....do you? I know I don't. I'll use one if it needs it. There are of course people that WOULD use it just because they have it, there's a message from Mark for you a bit higher up.

You wouldn't use a hammer on everything just because you had one, its no good for undoing bolts, but when you have some nails to knock in.....



Rob

Kiwi, you question basil's use of screens and say that you would look at your choice in kit to solve the problem. That may be a great solution, but many of us have to work in situations where we have to work with what we are given. Most drummers won't think like you and just turn up with whatever kit they have, they normally only have one.

As for your comment about church + drum screens = must be done. I disagree with what you are saying. Yes some churches will take that approach as there knowledge on acoustics and drums is limited, but they can help tremendously. I'm toying with the idea of using them at our church because: -

1) We meet in a sports hall (drapes around three sides) and the acoustics for drums cause lots of issues
2) The band have to be squeezed on a very small stage so the vocalists end up infront of the mics
3) In churches you quite often have vocalists and other musicians who aren't that confident so you have to push the gain, oh look there is mainly drums coming from that mic!
4) We have a house kit which all the drummers use, so should be tuned quite well. However the drummers bring their own snare/cymbals and one of them has the thickest crashes you can get from Zljian otherwise he cracks them! Play quieter you say? Have thinner cymbals? True, but he normally plays in a rock band that travels around the world so brings his normal cymbals he travels with. Screens would help with them getting into the vocal mics.....

If you want to tell me that I can get 85db off my stage without PA, with a modern style worship band, without using drums screens and a drummer being able to play normally please let me know how. As currently, we are really struggling to do that!


Adam

Yes.

<Pedant> tuning it right is a very relative term </pedant>

Go to HERE and there are 3 tracks on which you can hear what was recorded of the band (all close mic'd) a couple of years ago with the same drums he uses now. Studio situation, not live, but there wasn't any takes so the whole thing was one taken from single full-length takes.

You will hear from this that the drums sound good.

Hope this helps you in your quest.

Si
<><

When playing in a church he should be more humble and be the pro muso he claims to be and play appropriately for the venue, audience, and situation.

To be honest, he does. Just his cymbals are so thick they are louder than other cymbals and seem to have a longer sustain. He tried using a smaller diameter cymbal to see if that helped. Just as loud, and more ear piercing due to the higher frequency. There aren't any issues with the level of his snare/toms, it's just the cymbals!

All very well but the drummer was an extremely talented 17 year old who probably only has one kit as Biggles has said. Also to get the sound required for the big "happening" worship we needed a nice big kit sound so you can't just chuck in a small jazz kit as we won't get the sound we want!



there was no such problem, the band played with brilliant emotion and every band member could hear what they wanted even with screns.


This can be true but each individual case needs to be assesed to see whether it is what is best for they're situation


As biggles said and as I have said above if the environment the band is playing requires them then use them. I know the situation Biggles finds himself in very well and drum screens will definately help his situation. The majority of the time you can't chose the bands equipment and the stage they're on but you can chose whether to do things to solve your problems. If drum screens do then use them. Don't be ashamed of using them if they solve your problem but don't just use them because everyone else does.


Why thank you!

Oh and Mark and Biggles it was the front of house engineers idea I believe, maybe you should have a word with him!

Just a thought, there is one particular band that I work with and I have got comments from the lead tenor (saxophone) player about the difficulty he has hearing himself over the drums. (band is miked with 1 vocal, 1 solos and 1 piano microphones). Line up is drums, double bass, piano, 3 trumpets, 2 trombones and 4 reed players.
Peter

To basilbrush1982 – please don’t think my comments are about you or your decisions. All my comments are broad in nature and not directed at anyone (unless I have addressed them)

I know many drummers don’t have the right drum kits for the right rooms, but being in a church where the room never changes; it’s a lot easier to get it right than going out gigging at pubs, where you don’t see drum screens…

I am mostly pointing my finger at churches who have had the same kit (probably with the same heads on) for 5 or more years and are now saying, “hay these drums are a problem, lets get a drum screen” (if the truth be known, that quote should probably end with “because they have one down the road”)

OK so the kits been there for 5 years and now its drum screen time – NO
Have you looked at the kit, I mean asked someone who knows? Not a regular or a so-called professional-drummer but someone who really knows.
Heads, tuning, cymbals, angle, position, what’s behind it, what’s above it – real answers to what is recently a new problem.

- What is the difference between a professional drummer and a large cheese pizza?
A Large Pizza can feed a family of four…

To bigglesuk the problem sounds like the room and your choice of drummers.
I think your going to have a very hard time getting what you believe is a good sound (remembering that ‘good sound’ is relative to the listener) if this kit is stationary then address the kit first. So it’s a long sports hall, high ceiling, wooden floors, wooden stage, wood wood wood…

Try doubling the carped under the drums. A carpeted wall (black) behind the kit. Pinstripe heads with O’rings and don’t use a metal snare, get a wood snare with a CS dot or a P3 dot. And try tuning UP no down, this will make the drums sound clear and defined... Cymbals, get you own cymbals and if one drummer is a cymbal smasher, don’t let him play. (Quick tip, thin cymbals will take more pounding than thick because they have some give. Thick = loud not long life)
And it sounds to me like you won’t need to mic the kit, making things easier for you.

If you spend big money on a screen, you then need some good mics. At the end of the day, your still micing a kit then does not sound good in the first place.

To Mr.Si, sorry, I never ment your drums sounded bad. I was only generalizing.
I was illustration a point that a lot of very very nice kits are tuned like dogs.

Kiwi, I have spent many a time at Biggles' church (in fact I used to go there) and the kit sounds awesome even if it has been tuned by "regular or so-called professional drummers!" (who are probably the best people to do it!) There are more people in that church that know about drum kits and how to tune them than some churches have attending them, and you can't just turn round to an amazing drummer who is renowned in christian circles as being one of the best drummers out there and say sorry you can't play! Also where would you like the church to pull the money from? To buy a set of comparative cymbals to this guy uses would cost a couple of thousand pounds, that's not going to be easy to persuade people to spend that money when they can get cymbals for free by people bringing their own.

Oh and he's already said the problems not the kit its the cymbals so tuning it the way you've said and putting stuff behind the kit wouldn't help the problem, besides which there's already a big acoustic drape there anyway. And how would you propose solving the problem of the vocalists in front of the drums bearing in mind the stage is a small setup?

I can name dozens of shows I've been involved with where I'd have loved something to quieten down the drums and stop them leaking into every open mike. I'm firmly of the opinion that certain genres of music indicate certain volumes, and trying to get the drummer to play quieter makes it sound 'wrong'. So a screen can let them play loud but the sound remain manageable. I do know drummers who understand the problem and have different kits - Arbiter Flats work great in a pit where the drums frequently are too overpowering. The difference a properly tuned kit makes is very obvious, but I'm not certain it's a volume thing - a poorly tuned kick or tom that drones on forever is always mix prominent, but it isn't just level - it's the horrible noise it makes.

The trouble with modern church music is that their needs are very different to the typical live venue. They demand a low noise floor for the speech elements, but want rock level music. Nothing wrong with this at all - after all, the PA is there to service (pun intended) their needs.

Frequently, the venues are full - usually there are drapes and carpets, all adding their contribution to the 'sound' of the venue. The performance area is often large - some having the entire width of the venue open - no traditional wings, as in a theatre, and no pros opening. As a result, all sound on 'stage' is in full view and has direct paths to the audience's ears. Distance between performers usually demands high monitor levels, and direct vs monitor sound also has small time delays meaning the monitors have to be even louder. Once the drummer kicks off, everyone has to play at a complimentary level to the drums, or not be heard. If it is a quiet instrument, like a flute, then monitors get even more important. The ability to quieten down the drums is pretty useful in these situations.

One last comment - perspex/plexiglass screens are very easy to crack or scratch. Some designs I've had through our venue have hinged panels, but these are often cracked around the bolt holes after hard use. Many are suffering from scuffs and scrapes. The best ones seem to be where the panels are separate, and packaged in proper housings, and the slotted into a hinged frame. They don't look as good as plain plexi, as the frame is quite substantial, but they last. In a church setting, I'd imagine a semi-permanent glass screen to be a very useful device to have around.

Had a fantastic example of differences between drummers last week down at the local rock club on an all-comers jam night.

Played bass for three numbers with one drummer, all cooking along nicely, no problems. Changed drummers for another 2 numbers, and I was in pain and investigating other stage positions midway through the first number. Same kit, all the same PA config, just the drummer changing made a *HUGE* difference.

OK I have a new question for you all.

Forget sound quality and player quality for a second - Is it right to put a musician, any musician, behind a barrier?

Furthermore, hypothetically speaking, for any reason, you would ever put a singer behind a screen?

Well drummers already sit behind a huge screen of drums, so a bit of perspex isn't much of a problem. I have no problem with any musician including a singer being behind a screen - happens in the studio all the time, live performance wise, then the visual element is important - sometimes more important than the sound. If the performance has to be seen properly, then screens are out, aren't they?

If the show is produced from the start with the screen as a part of the production, and the lighting guy knows how to light around, through it, without glare, and the screen is well looked after, handled with gloves, cleaned properly etc, there is no reason why it should affect anything being seen properly.

I don’t feel it’s fair to say that drummers sit behind a 'screen of drums'. Would you call Ringo Starr's kit a 'screen of drums'?
Only a select few sit behind giant kits which may make it hard to seem them, but that is there instrument, the drum screen is not an instrument.

A grand piano (with its lid up) covers most if not all of the pianist, would you put him behind a screen?
Or more to the question, would he sit behind one?

I don't think you've looked at the reasons why we use screens, we don't use them so you can't see the drummer. We'd sooner not use them, its one less thing to carry and setup.

Rob

If people want to be seen on stage then they sing, or play guitar. Ignoring 'Keytars' or 'Guitboards', people at pianos are bottom half masked at least and multi keys players usually have a bit of leg, and top chest and head visible. Drummers can't really even move their top halfs, and at best are top chest and head only. My screen of drums comment relates to the fact that even a modest drum kit has toms in front. In fact, last night's show had the drummer place his music stand on top of the two toms, making only his head visible to the audience.

Perspex screens, can be a nice contained area for internal lighting, making for some nice reflection effects. The drums themselves take light well, it's just that the drummer is frequently just a moving 'blob behind nice colourful shells and hardware.

And now with the 2 year delayed start of the CONAW in the music industry coming close (which I was reminded about by this month's L&Si article), the noise exposure for each of the musicians and all the crew too, especially those near or on the stage will likely need to be protected from being exposed to the noise levels they blatantly produce by their instruments.

So the use of them, along with hearing protection (which they REALLY should wear already anyway) may be more common place in order to help reduce the overall stage sound/noise and protect the others.

Yes the drummer may also have to learn to play quietly, but that's not always going to work is it? I mean, a Heavy Metal Band were there's cymbal and snare chaos and just loud drummage isn't going to work if the drummer suddenly has to start hitting their drums softly. It'd turn into Lead (as in the soft malleable metal).
It's like in Jools Holland's band, all the brass section, or at least just the trumpets are behind small perspex screens to protect those in front.