How much power?

[Ben Lawrance]

Hi guys,

 

I have a 1.6Kw Turbosound rig that I use for live gigs (school bands etc) but it just doesn't cut it.

 

2x TL1800 subs running 500w rms each

2x Impact 121's running 300w rms each

 

bi-amped with qsc amps (RMX 1850HD on the tops & RMX 2450 on the bottom)

 

Now the problem I've got is that when I do the gigs, because the guitarists insist on having their amps so high, the PA just doesn't cut.

 

I also get the odd drummers dad asking me to "give the kick drum a bit more" - I can't. It is just about into the orange on the mixer, and the amps just about clip.

 

Not really after advice, but would like to know what size PA's people use on bands (general school halls, pubs, hotels etc)

 

Is 1.6kw ok, or do people use 4 or 5 Kw?????????

 

Answers on a postcard

 

Cheers

Ben

[Mike C]

I use PS-15's from nexo - only with a 1.2kW amp (it could take that either side and a bit more) and it's loud as hell. Put it this way - there arn't many gigs where Matt, my collegue, has had to leave a gig to regain his hearing after many years in the game. Lucky I had ear plugs - that was in a fair sizes auditorium.

 

I would honsetly say that 1.6 should be sufficient, somthing is going wrong somewhere, 4/5kW is a bit extreem for school halls and pubs etc.

[Rob_Beech]

Hi Ben,

 

I'd like to say I would use xxx.xxK in a venue of that size but its really not that simple.

There is so much more that goes into it that the overall power. Sure you can generally say that a 20k rig will be louder than a 2k rig. But I know rigs of around 20k that are far louder than those of over 30k.

 

If you only have that gear available and are not in a position to buy any more then you have to use it. This may mean altering the way its used or the way everything that goes with it is used.

 

Tell your guitarist that he will ruin the overall sound out front if he has his amp too loud. Tell him the audience wont be able to hear anything but the guitar. If this fails. turn it up in his monitors....ALOT...... they usually turn down then.

 

Personally I would use a larger rig in there particularly if you have loud musicians.

In smaller venues with a band I work with... very regularly shall we say... I'll just put a pair of tq310's on poles and use that (vocals only with maybe a touch of keys). But with rock/metal bands you just will not cut it.

 

I'm in a local pub on monday where there are 3 rather heavy metal bands playing. I'll be taking a stack a side of Martin Wavefront just to get above the guitars. (its not ideal as its far too loud but you have to be able to hear everything...there is a limit of course). That works out about 7k and thats a (fairly large) pub. and its very efficient stuff.

 

 

if you can get hold of or are in a position to buy other gear then id' look into getting the efficient stuff as it makes life so much easier. (although ti comes at a price)

 

 

I'm not great with turbo model numbers so I'm unsure as to what cabs you have.

I would suggest that if you're subs are 8ohms each. try wiring them up off your amplifier in bridged mode. Bass will be in mono but this will have no effect.

 

you'll get alot more out of your amp that way.

or better still you could buy one of my Crest CA 18's off me........

 

 

 

Rob

[BenWall]

Hi Ben.

 

I have not worked a massive amount of live music events, although I have worked on a few fairly large ones whilst on work experience with Britannia Row. The main thing I have learnt from this is that it's not how loud you can go, its the quality...shall we say quality not quantity.

 

Obviously when you have the high end equipment it is possible to go to extreme levels without causing any wimper from the amp's etc. Some may disagree with me, but the more you pay, the better the kit get's!

 

Much planning and prep. also goes into the sort of rig that will be used for the event, where as your PA should quite happily deal with an audience of say 400 indoors, outdoors would be very different story. So my personal advice would be visit the venue before you turn up to install your PA, do a wrecky of the site and see what you think! You should get a pretty instant idea of whether your rig is up to it or not.

 

Also, out of interest, are you running the PA through a crossover and/or limiter and what sort of desk are you using?

 

Ben.

[jamielovesmusic]

For temporary fix try to eq more effectivley boosting the singers vocal high end eq may help to cut through the lead guitars. We sometimes have this problem when working on stage and guitarists insist in turning up there amps - so then we have to turn up the monitors. Remember that as a band - each member should be listening to each other performing to create an ensemble. If one person is blasting out and ruining the whole sound of the band - then that person should turn themselves down. Also its the quality of the sound and not the quantity.

[Rob_Beech]

and you'll be able to maximize quality with headroom. So it is a bit of both.

 

but the more you pay, the better the kit get's!

 

I never like statements like this as it isn't really detailed enough.

 

We all know that 3 stacks a side of C7 top and sub and 2 pairs of B2's to compliment it costs more than 3 old pairs of Eurosys 3's with eurosys subs.

And we all know the staggering difference in quality, this is where teh statement is true.

 

But if you compare something on the same level you can fin that paying the SAM AMOUNT or EVEN LESS can get you better quality.

 

For the most part its what you do with it that counts. keep the level sensible, allow headroom, make the musicians understand they are a band not 4 or 5 individuals that just happen to be playing together, and make sure they turn down to a sensible level.

 

 

Rob

[BenWall]

Yes, If you compare a d&b stack to a 'Carlsberg' stack there is a massive difference between quality and the price tag's. I was being very general with the comment :)

 

Ben.

[Ben Lawrance]

Thanks for the replies guys,

 

Using a Spirit Folio SX with a Behringer Ultracurve 8024 on the Main Mix inserts. The limiter is turned off.

 

The X-over is the 2310, again from Behringer.

 

All sources are PFL'd correctly and each channel is eq'd on sound check.

 

Any ideas????

 

Cheers

Ben

[mal421]

Hi Ben

 

I generally agree with what Rob Beech has said and most of that is from experience . Recently I had the dubious pleasure of working with a band who had a stupidly loud drummer . His snare drum was clipping the vocal mics . He quite proudly annouced "I'm a sound mans nightmare" I replied no you're not I turned your mics off . All that happened was the rest of the band were fighting the drummer all night and about 3/4 of the way through the set the vocalist's voice just gave up from having to shout . I was using 2.5k of HK kit I could have done with double that all because of the drummer . So try every trick you know to get the guitarist to turn it down . As a last resort do what I did to one band and turned the FOH off and let them play to the foldback all night . The on stage sound was so loud nobody noticed .

[Mr.Si]

The problem lies with the band members not turning down their amplifiers, as has been mentioned before. For some reason "School Bands" seem to think that turning up their amps is important and sounds good.

 

They need to turn their amps down, learn to play as a band (rather than create noisy mess). Then at FOH you'll have less stage sound to interfere with the sound coming from the speakers. Also it will make monitoring an easier task (in theory).

 

As the sound engineer, you need to take charge of the sound levels in order to control the "musician's" instruments. Not the "musicians" controlling you, as they quite often are only interested in hearing themselves.

 

If they don't respect you, then may I suggest the fish?

 

Si

[J Pearce]

I do a lot of work with local bands, and on the whole they respect that the engineer has a better idea of what its like FOH than they do. Several of the bands set up their amps, then let me wander around and adjust their master volumes til the mix is right.

 

I recently did a largish gig at college, with about 200 people in the audience. I had 3k of PA and was only using about 2k of that. To be honest if you go over 3k you will have problems getting power at the average school band venue, plus IME in those kind of venues you will hit feedback before you can use all the power you have.

 

If the bands can't learn to respect the engineer and turn down when asked then there is nothing you can do; they will just sound awful compared to those who do turn down.

 

The other option is to DI them (from an amp line out) then pump it back down the foldbacks. It won't sound anywhere near as good as the amp mic'ed up, but will leave you with more headroom for vocals.

[Rob_Beech]

The other option is to DI them (from an amp line out) then pump it back down the foldbacks. It won't sound anywhere near as good as the amp mic'ed up, but will leave you with more headroom for vocals.

 

 

Sorry, I'm not sure I follow. If you are still using the guitar amp on stage and only swapping the output source to a Line Out through a DI instead of a mic on the cab, how can this improve headroom? The cause of the problem is from the stage level being too high. You can put the guitar back through the wedges if its mic'd. Sorry if I'm missed something blatantly obvious here, I dont tend to get feedback issues with mics on guitar cabs.

 

In response to another post. Loud drummers are a PITA as well, but I've often found that unless you're in a very small room they can play acoustically and not cause too much hassle. Guitar amps are designed to project the sound forwards and this is where the problem lies.

 

If people can get guitarists to turn down then this is the ideal solution, failing that maybe they could get stands for their amps and point them at the guitarists. The guitarists 2nd set of ears located on the back of his knees are not too sensitive.

 

I'm working with 3 bands tomorrow night (In Derby...come along anyone who lives here), these bands seem to have it sussed, listen to the one that knows :P. They'll sound a damn sight better than other bands who think they need a Marshall stack on 11 in a small pub.

 

 

Rob

[J Pearce]

I'm not sure what I meant rereading that.

 

I think I meant:

 

DI the amps and kill the onboard speaker.

Then give them plenty of guitars in the foldback.

[Mr.Si]

If DI'ing an Electric Gtr, why the need for an amp at all if the amp's speaker is not being used?

Surely the "Volume Control" which controls the speaker, also controls the line or "Speaker Emulation" output.

So... why not discount the guitar amp and then just plug the FX outputs into the DI box.

 

Mind you, I'd never ever even consider the DI option for an electric gtr. But hey, that's just the way I work.

[J Pearce]

On most occasions I'd never ever DI an electric guitar.

The reason for the amp is that most guitarists use the amp for FX.

 

Its not a perfect solution by any means, I'd prefer to keep a technician handy to keep an eye on those pesky guitarists who adjust levels after soundcheck.

 

I have had to use this once with a young band who thought they knew everything, and had parents who agreed. It gave much better results than the other option, which was to leave their amps live and hope the PA kept up with the ridiculous levels their amps were chucking out and hope the audience didnt go deaf!