Which Generator to buy ?

[djmatthill]

Hi Guys ,

 

I`m a Soundboy myself and have been asked to advise a group on which Generator they should Buy.

 

They hold 2 or 3 small open air events a year and I supply the PA for them and they have decided that they want to buy a generator to use.

 

Now before everyone says they should rent (I totally agree) I have stressed over and over that this would be the best option BUT they insist on

wanting to purchase one.

 

The Generator would need to adequatly supply power to the following :-

 

x3 Chevin 2000 Watt Amps

x2 Laptop Computers

Plus Mixing Desk and rack of outboard etc.

 

They also want to run (Argggggh!!!) the Catering Hot Water urns from the same supply ??? How much current would they draw ???

 

The Budget is under £700 and would need to be able to safely power all the above without fear of it "popping" my equipment or being overloaded.

 

A member of the club has suggested this : - My link

 

It looks like more of a site gen to run powertools to me , would the supply be clean and free from spikes etc from this type of thing ??

 

Would this be suitable to power delicate equipment such as Laptops , Mixers and Tea Urns ???

 

Your Help would be appreciated ...... And yes I know they should rent one , BUT! :unsure:

 

 

Matt

[ddproduction]

Just as an aside, keeping the tea urn on all the time gives the generator a nice static load to work with, meaning the varying draw from the amps wont affect the voltage output.

[jonathanhill]

Just as an aside, keeping the tea urn on all the time gives the generator a nice static load to work with, meaning the varying draw from the amps wont affect the voltage output.

 

No it will not, as when the urn is hot, the thermostat will keep switching on and off, and therefore the load will vary. For a small generator with other dynamic loads, such as amplifiers, this will mean that the voltage output will vary, likely outside of the limits that the power supplies in mixers and amplifiers can safely manage. A static load of, say 1kW of linear flood lighting would be a better base load.

 

To the OP, the generator that you have linked to has no mention of Automatic Voltage Regulation (AVR), which is a must when connecting electronic equipment, especially those that present a dynamic load. It looks like a site generator, and it uses petrol as its fuel, which apart from the issues in storing and transporting, will cost a flippin' fortune to run.

 

More than one 3kW urn and the other equipment would be too much for this generator, as it is rated at 5.5kVA. I think if you divide by 0.8, you should get the approximate power in kW.

 

Basically, my response would be NO, NO, NO!

 

If you have to buy, a diesel generator of around 10-20kVA, with AVR, and a three phase supply is the only choice, but you are having a giraffe with under £700.

[adam2]

A tea urn is usually 3KW, and since reference is made to urnS that suggests at least two will be used.

So that is at least 6KW for catering.

 

If we presume that a 2,000 watt amplifier is in chinese watts, and not a true 2,000 watts RMS output, then I would allow for an input of 2,000 watts per amplifier.

Laptops, mixing desks and the like use very little.

 

What about lighting ?

Catering equipment other than urns, hotplates, boiling ring, microwave oven ?

 

I doubt that the generator linked would be enough for even a single tea urn and the audio equipment, and it certainly wont work anything beyond that.

 

To allow for two tea urns and the audio equipment I would suggest a diesel generator of at least 10 KW/ 12KVA, and a size larger would be better to allowfor a little extra load.

 

You might get a half decent secondhand one for £700, but new, no way.

 

OTOH, a generator is a useful thing to have but money spent on hiring is gone forever.

[djmatthill]

Hmmm as I suspected I did nt think it would be at all suitable

 

Does anyone know of any good suppliers for 2nd Hand Gens in the North West ?

 

Would £700 get close to getting somthing right if we looked at USED / 2nd Hand gens ?

 

 

Matt

[Chris Beesley]

These may be worth a try - although their rental stocks usually start around 10kva I know Adweld at least sell smaller units. They are also very cost effective to hire from, I use them for a number of events.

http://www.adweld.co.uk

http://www.matherandstuart.co.uk/Home.aspx

[adamharman]

Would £700 get close to getting somthing right if we looked at USED / 2nd Hand gens ?

 

 

Not even close to getting what you ideally need, even 2nd hand!

 

A silenced (i.e. properly enclosed) 10kva (8kw) diesel generator is going to cost at least £2k second hand even for a cheap brand.

 

Something like this http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/110955174981 might be ok, and you might find a used one for that money. It's got an AVR and it's powerful enough, but it's still petrol and it will be noisy!

[ImagineerTom]

1) you're not going to get a generator of the right power for the money you want to spend; even the cheapest Chinese tat won't give you that level of power (and variation) for that sort of money

2) everything suggested so far has been petrol powered with a small onboard fuel tank. Petrol is EXPENSIVE and will continue get more expensive every month. Most importantly with petrol generators you MUST shut down the generator to refill it (there really is no way around it) so if its only got a big enough tank for 3-4hrs at full load expect to have to completely stop the show 3 or 4 times every day whilst refueling. Diesel generators can have larger external tanks and can (though it's not best practice) be refueled whilst running. The RA & paperwork for diesel is much easier than it is for petrol as well.

3) The kind of use (and variety of users) you're talking about means you're going to need some decent protected distro systems - that alone is going to cost more than your stated budget; it's also going to need some proper inspection and a heck of a lot of cabling.

4) The real secret to generators is not the manufacturer; it's the servicing and maintenance. The difference between a premium brand and a cheap brand genset of the same power is negligible (they are very old and simple technology); what really effects efficiency and lifespan is the servicing and maintenance. A proper program of oil changes, tuning, filter replacement and regular servicing by someone who knows what they're doing will ensure even the cheapest generator will last forever (most circus's and funfairs will be powered by gensets 40+ years old - they've just been constantly maintained and serviced) whilst the most expensive premium brand generator will stop working within hours if you don't change the oil filter on time.

 

There's really no discussion here; rental is the only option; go to any generator rental company; offer them a multi-event deal (or a power-by-the-hour deal) and you'll be surprised at how quickly high retail prices turn in to very reasonable fees.

[bobalobus]

Hi

 

I can confirm that the Clarke 3KVA we have in are stock has AVR even though it is not stated on the website or in the manual, I would say its pretty likely the 5,5kva does as well, might be worth giving the guys at machinemart a call, there very helpful and will get one open and see if it have the marking on the side

 

We use the 3kva to run 2x Crown XTI4000 and normal a small monitor amp on the side xti1000 normal, + mixer and normal a band amp or 2, and never had any difference from running off the mains,

 

I would advice you got an inline RCD and earth rod to help make things a bit safer, and tell catering to get themselves there own generator

[pete10uk]

I've tried a few generators for audio and before you mentioned tea erns I would have recomended a look at the Honda eu range. I now have an eu20 but they make a bigger one and handelly they can be linked together and are perfect for amps. I've used 2 x eu20's which are briefcase sized and easy to transport. However these come at a price. I think your budget is unrealistic for your requirements. I would say a cheapie machine mart would be ideal for the catering but would highly recommend the Honda eu's for the tech.

[Hugh]

Many Local Authority licensing sections do not allow petrol generators on event sites at all.

[Stuart91]

Many Local Authority licensing sections do not allow petrol generators on event sites at all.

 

Or they'll harass the PA company about not having a petrol genny, then you turn up on site to find every catering outlet has one farting away...

[laolu]

I'd go for 2 generators in this case, one for audio equipment and one for catering (plus light). Because sooner or later you want to add a fridge for the beer (who needs hot tea at an outdoor music fest anyway?). The compressor of even a small refridgerator can easily draw a spike of 10 A for start-up.

 

Norbert

[adam2]

Yes, two good points made above, firstly that some venues discourage or prohibit petrol generators due to the fire risk, and secondly that fridges may be added and draw in fact more than 10 amps on start up. The start up current is used so briefly that it is unlikely to hurt the generator, but may cause problems with audio equipment.

 

HINT when d0m3stic fridges have a running current of less than one amp, why do they come with 13 amp fuses ?

 

Another reason to prefer diesel over petrol, is that whoever ends paying for the generator will probably be tempted to use it d0m3sticly in power cuts, and will therefore keep fuel for it.

Diesel keeps better and is much safer to store than petrol.

 

As above, although not recomended, a diesel generator can at a pinch be fueled whilst running, this would be foolhardy with petrol.

 

The law limits petrol storage to a suprisingly small volume. (without special fire precautions and a licence)

[Original Beef]

Anything wrong with http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/5KVA-SILENT-RUNNING-LDE6800T-DIESEL-GENERATOR-5KVA-/380267759845?pt=UK_BOI_Industrial_Tools_Generators_ET&hash=item5889b988e5 ? Seems to tick all the boxes on this thread, right price, AVR, diesel, enough power. Or am I missing something??