[Shez]

For an upcoming show, we're looking at some very simple projection of static images on to BWS and/or gauze (with BWS behind). ~ Half a dozen still images - mostly text (scene titles), the show logo and possibly a simple scenic element, all of which are likely to be monochrome. Budget is likely to rule out video projection (yes I've read the thread about why they cost so much) so I'm exploring other possible avenues. One thing I'm a little stuck on is what sort of brightness will produce usable results when projecting on to black; ambient light will be very low. I'm not expecting west end quality - it just has to be readable. The venue is unfortunately 200 miles away so trying out things in situ isn't very practicable. Options:

• Ye old faithful Kodak carousel - cheap, slides are easy to make, completely controllable via RS232 (show control is SCS which can look after that) but only 1300 lumens.
  
• A bank of Selecon Pacifics
  
• Other??

I've experimented with a bog-standard desktop video projector of ~1400 lumens projecting on to black with a similar image size - the brightness is just about workable but having not tried to project on to gauze before, I don't know just how much dimmer it's going to end up. Any advice on projecting on to gauze also welcome - I imagine the nearer perpendicular the better? The venue is continuous raked seating (no convenient circle front) so it's either the back wall or furthest LX bridge.

Is there anything else out there that can project from slides or acetate that sits somewhere between a slide projector and a PIGI in terms of brightness and cost? Any other budget options?

Throw is ~26m for an image diagonal of ~5m. 17m is also possible but the angle is somewhat steeper.

[Ynot]

26 metres throw???
With only 1300/1400 lum to play with that's going to be mighty dim by the time it reaches the projection surface. projecting on to white at that distance isn't going to be too brilliant, but black isn't going to do you any favours.

However if you want to play with projecting on to gauze, talk REALLY nice to me and I may see about hanging ours on stage for you (not a million miles away from you as you know) and we can throw one of our little 1400 lum machines up.

[ianknight]

Selecon Pacific's sound like the best way to go - try and find someone with the 14-35 degree lens tubes as they will take a B size actetate and the extra image size will let you play with contrast more effectively.

If you have a lot of images to show, then do the sums for glass monochrome gobo's - custom prices are floating down slightly and by the time you cost finding/prep'ing your images you might be surprised.

Unless the lanterns will be rigged where you can't reach them easily - don't worry about the Selecon Acetate holder, the ordinary clamp style holder will suffice BUT don't run the lanterns above 70% intensity. However, you may still have to back off the lamp in the burner. You might get away with GKV burners but if you end up with a couple of dense images then the 1kW burner might help.

I've used Pacific's with acetate gobo's for plenty of shows and even used them to project coloured images on to a gauze, you do lose some intensity but not enough to worry about. When you prepare the images, tweak the contrast slightly and don't go for very light shading it just doesn't appear on the final image when projected on to anything other than a white flat surface. As you'll likely be prep'ing the images in something light photoshop - it might even be possible to do some pre-distortion to let you use a closer throw?

[Shez]

Thanks Tony, I shall be in touch.
On the throw vs brightness thing, I don't think that will be an issue - with the right lens, the same amount of light is still reaching the screen to create the same sized image regardless of whether the throw is 3m or 30m. OK, there'll be minor losses due to a bit more glass in a longer lens but that's not hugely significant.

Ian, I'm considering a glass gobo for the show logo as that will be on for 20m at a time and I suspect that'll be pushing it for any acetate-type solution. Images will all be literally black and clear - no subtle graduations. I've thought about pre-distortion; that bit is easy enough but what concerns me is if projecting on to gauze with black just US of it, the image on the black will be increasingly lower down than the one on the gauze as the angle steepens, producing an undesirable double image. But I don't know how much of a problem that might be...

[alistermorton]

Recently we did a production of the 39 steps, and this required some projections onto the cyc - a union jack, a couple of nazi flags, and a twinkling starfield.

Problem is, the cyc was covered in matt black painted plastic brick effect.

We discovered that our bog standard business type SVGA projector has a setting for the colour of screen it's projecting onto, and black was one of them. On selecting that, the images suddenly looked clear and vibrant. Not as bright as on a white screen, but not dim, and certainly not overwhelmed by the (admittedly low key) scene lighting. The twinkling starry night was particualrly effective.

The projector in question is an ordinary bsuniess type Benq - not really an expensive jobby. We use it with a wide angle projection lense, with the projector mounted high up behind the pros and this puts it about 6m from the cyc (we're a small amateur theatre, and the stage isn't very deep). By setting the projector to project down steeply and using its built in keystone correction, the actors can get to within 2m of the cyc before they start to cast a shadow.

The images are stored in a powerpoint presentation (video clips also work) and the PC running the presentation is linked to SFX, so that the image changes, lighting changes and sound cues are all on the same control system.

It works surprisingly well for a low cost projector. Might something along those lines work for you?

[Ynot]

Shez, on 18 August 2012 - 10:56 AM, said:

Thanks Tony, I shall be in touch.

As a reference point Shez, think back to when you saw Billy Elliot at my place last year - the opening film sequences were projected onto black gauze with a black tab set behind, and that was from a 1400 lum projector. Not ideal and with grainy b/w images wasn't as clear as I'd have liked.

[sleepytom]

I'm a little confused by this...

In my experience video projection is useful because it is the cheapest way of doing reasonably bright projection.

Kodak Carousels are too dim, making slides is expensive, Ektapro's are better but costly. Something like an Optikentics Gobopro is better but even more expensive, and has no way to change slides automatically. So you could have a bank of Gobopro units, or indeed a bank of Selecon Pacifics, or even a bank of Source 4s with glass gobos. None of these options are cheap.


Video projection on the other hand is fairly cheap. You can buy a 3000 lumen office style projector for less than the cost of a single Selecon Pacific. The cost of preparing images is vastly reduced (no physical printing / gobo cutting needed) and the control side is vastly simpler (using screen monkey or qlab).


The only issue you'll have with video projection is your throw. "standard" video projection lenses tend to have a throw ratio of between 1.2:1 and 2.2:1 (throw to image width) your screen size and truss positions need 4.25:1 or 6.5:1 lenses. Projection lenses are expensive and only work with better quality projectors so going down this route can make it less affordable.


Most venues can find a way to get a projector close enough to the "screen". A 3000 lumen projector can be picked up for less than £500 so providing you can get it rigged in the correct place then video will be the cheapest option.

[Shez]

I've noticed that blackboard setting on a few projectors but never thus far had reason to try it - I normally project on to nice white screens... Tony - can you recall how much of a double image you got when projecting on to gauge and black? I don't remember it being massively noticeable? If that's not too significant a problem, then projecting from closer up and at a steeper angle may be feasible. Having said that, the distance from LX1 to the gauze isn't sufficient to get the required image size even with a wide desktop projector; coming out in to the auditorium would mean a several meter drop from one of the FoH bridges. And a dowser wherever it ends up. The main reason I had initially discounted video was simple because of the throw from the ideal projector position as that would indeed need an expensive lens.

When I mentioned Kodak carousels, I was of course referring to Ektapros. They go second hand for silly cheap prices these days so that's really not an expensive route. For slides, I have access to a darkroom so they're easy enough to do, assuming that printing directly to acetate (as one would for OHPs) isn't workable.

It's only a week long run so buying expensive kit isn't really an option. £500 is certainly out. I'm happy to accept that the final solution may be a hybrid of more than one system, e.g. glass gobo for show logo and something else for titles - that may get around some size issues as the titles won't take up nearly as much screen estate as the logo and so may be possible from closer up.

[Ynot]

Shez, on 19 August 2012 - 02:41 PM, said:

Tony - can you recall how much of a double image you got when projecting on to gauge and black? I don't remember it being massively noticeable?

It was there as a double image, but not too bad - the tracks were pretty close (around 6 inches or so) which reduced that as far as practicable.

[dwright2104]

Hire yourself a 7k projector with suitable lens from a local company shouldn't cost to much for a week.

[Ynot]

dwright2104, on 19 August 2012 - 11:18 PM, said:

Hire yourself a 7k projector with suitable lens from a local company shouldn't cost to much for a week.

Hmmm... ™
Well, having a quick cast around, projectors of that order seem to be hiring at over £500 a week, and as Shez has already said £500 is out of his budget.....

[dwright2104]

Ynot, on 19 August 2012 - 11:33 PM, said:

dwright2104, on 19 August 2012 - 11:18 PM, said:

Hire yourself a 7k projector with suitable lens from a local company shouldn't cost to much for a week.

Hmmm... ™
Well, having a quick cast around, projectors of that order seem to be hiring at over £500 a week, and as Shez has already said £500 is out of his budget.....

Jeeeeessss! didnt relise they were that much, you never seem to relise even when you use them a lot.

[lite_lad]

you could easily get a projector of around that brightness for less than 500 for a week, maybe 500 including delivery and all the bits! but it would look right, and not like youd bodged it with your home projector....

[dwright2104]

lite_lad, on 21 August 2012 - 07:29 PM, said:

you could easily get a projector of around that brightness for less than 500 for a week, maybe 500 including delivery and all the bits! but it would look right, and not like youd bodged it with your home projector....

I agree, having something that will work will certainly be more suitable, if the budget really still wont allow, then if its just big bold text, then you may be able to get away with 4 office projectors aligned as close as possible but this would mean having somewhere the projectors could all be sat one on top of each other, which may make it unfeasible.

[Shez]

As has been already been pointed out (twice), £500 isn't even remotely feasible. If it was, I wouldn't have needed to ask the question in the first place!

A stack of four projectors isn't very workable either - nowhere to rig them and without lens shifts or a media server driving them, not much chance of any alignment.

We're not talking west end here - it's a small youth theatre production in a 500 seater amateur venue. Heath Robinson wouldn't be out of place!