[cedd]

I've sat on this for a while and have issued numerous reminders and deadlines. Tomorrow I begin proceedings for Small Claims Court.

I'm going to be very careful here to present only facts so as not to render myself or the Blue Room moderators libel, in the hope that this thread can stay open and visible to as many as possible.


At the end of April I undertook work for Keynote Educational Limited on a conference nearby. I didn't charge anything like enough for it and now regret it! It was pretty straightforward - a few radio mics in my regular venue and a bit of playback. Invoice issued a couple of days before the event at their request. My payment terms are 30 days.

At 25 days I issued a polite reminder that the invoice was due. No response. A couple of weeks later I issued a copy invoice for the same amount along with an email requesting payment. Eventually this was responded to by somebody who had "just taken over" their finance department. Payment would be made "within the next week". Needless to say no payment was received.

A week ago I sent 3 letters by recorded delivery to the Company Secretary, the Chief Executive and my contact in the Finance Department requesting payment within 5 working days or I would begin legal proceedings against them. No payment has been received. I also told them that should payment not be received, I would make every effort to make sure that others would not be caught up in a similar set of circumstances by informing potential employees and venues.

Last time I spoke to them (a few weeks ago) the venue had also not been paid. This may, of course, have been rectified in the meantime.


I now know of other Blue Roomer's who have also not been paid money owed to them by Keynote.
If anybody else is owed money by them, it'd be interesting to hear about it. The company previously existed as Keynote Training Limited - now in administration.

This thread won't succeed in getting the money I'm owed, but hopefully it might stop others from being in the same situation.

I've bitten my tongue quite carefully with the above text. I'm not overly impressed. This is my first non-paying customer and I sincerely hope it's my last.

[paulears]

I'd be happy to provide accurate and verifiable details of my experience with the company if anyone needs it. I'm also considerably out of pocket with Keynote.

[cedd]

Just a catchup, I've begun small claims procedings against Keynote. It's worth pointing out how easy it actually is to begin this process, and so far my experience has been good. I'll keep people updated with how the process goes because I'm sure it might be of use to some people. Application has been made online at a cost of £25 (added automatically to the claim amount). Very straightforward and (so far) nothing to be afraid of.

[GR1]

The smaill claims court is nothing to be afraid of. It is designed for us and works very well. Obviously in cases where a well run company goes bust or a company is 'flipped' - ie; asset stripped and it's assets bought by the same people who continue to trade without the old liabilities there is nothing you can do. In cases where a supplier chooses that they would like to decline to pay it does very well. Over the years I have experienced - not very often - all of these categories and to be honest I find it just as effective to write telling the debtor exactly which day I will proceed with the small claim as actually proceeding to get my invoice paid. Unless they plan to flip the company they can't stand the court judgement against them. When the court has issued my claim I have always been either paid in full in days without any question or 'mystically' their normal payment of my invoice seems to have 'crossed in the post' with the court papers in which case you lose the court fee. As you seem to have been sensible with reminders you should be OK.

Please let us all know how you do.

[kerry davies]

My experience is almost identical to Graham's. For those unaware this LINK might be worth bookmarking for future reference.

No fear with this system, it works well.

This post has been edited by kerry davies: 20 August 2012 - 01:49 PM

[Stutwo]

We've been avoiding this company for some time now, to the extent that we turn down requests from teaching staff to go on the courses. Hope you get something for your efforts.

[paulears]

They also have an annoying habit of booking people onto courses that are not right for them - so you get a room full of beginners, and discover 5 or 6 people who were told it would also cover more advanced topics that you simply can't do, because of the confusion to the majority. They then become understandably hostile, and start to pick holes, as they've wasted their schools money and their time! Very difficult - especially when the training manager has left you on your own as he's trying to cover more than one course at a time in different hotels!

I tell everyone I meet my experience and if it puts them off, I consider that a moral victory. 20 people at what, £300 each? wow!

[paulears]

I'm just doing my accounts and came across a couple of documents that may help.

I have a signed document from the two directors of the old company that states:

Quote

Re: KEYNOTE EDUCATIONAL LIMITED Company Number 06723699 (The Company_
We confirm that Keynote Courses and Conferences Ltd Company 07674103 (The purchaser) has recently acquired the assets and goodwill of the company from the joint administrators of the company, Stephen Clancy and Sarah Bell of MCR, the Chancery, 58 Spring Gardens, Manchester M2 1EW who were appointed on 12/7/2011

We confirm that we are acting and intend to continue as directors of the purchaser and therefore enclose notices pursuant to rule 4.228A of the Insolvency Rules 1986.

Just in case anyone needs to see the documents, which being a creditor, are public information - they are here.

It appears that the Keynote Education Ltd Company is in administration, having had no information to the contrary, and it appears that their assets have been transferred. So while Keynote Education Ltd can continue to trade, they have no assets (and certainly no goodwill!) So this means that (if I understand it correctly), they can continue to trade, but have no assets to seize against any further debt. I think the administrators would be good people to direct any communication to concerning debts or alleged debts.

[cedd]

Thanks for that Paul

So if I can get my head around this, they've actually been in administration for over a year, so they were in administration while I was working for them. Hence right from day one there was probably no chance of me getting paid, but they decided to use my services anyway. That's how it reads to me......

Looks like I do indeed need to get in touch with their administrators and lodge my claim with them.

Will my claim through the Money Claim Online system find its way to their administrators do we think, or do I need to send them a copy?

Grrrrrrrr

Edit to add; does that not meant that they were trading while insolvent?



C

This post has been edited by cedd: 31 August 2012 - 12:51 PM

[paulears]

I don't think that technically they were - they blamed (in my case) the schools and colleges taking time to pay, but I seem to remember you sent the money in advance, so I suspect the bank account had money in it, however, they hang on to it. The lady on those forms sent me an out of office reply - she is back on Monday!

I'd expect the firm to send your claim paperwork to the administrators - but sadly I doubt it is the only one they've had. I think I may do the same actually - how much has it cost you?

[cedd]

The Money Claim Online thing is only £25 and they add it to the claim amount as well, so if you were to succeed (I doubt I will anymore) in theory you'd get it back.

Think I'll get in touch with the administrators direct too just to make sure they've got the message.

[Whiskers]

The most fun you can have now is

considering were they continuing to trade whilst knowingly insolvent?

did they set out to defraud you, ie engaged you with out 100% intention of paying?

both are criminal acts, the liquidators / administrators write a report to the DTI about directors conduct but if it is for sure criminal you may also go to the police.

If there are three or more creditors willing to get involved and throw time away you can form a creditors committee, compare whats and whens

the administrator is bound to listen to a formal committee, make it known early that you might be interested in purchasing the assets, it ups the pittance

that they will have to find to restart, and if you get lucky it worth it to ensure they can NOT restart except from scratch.

[paulears]

That's not quite how the system works. Administration is something designed to keep a company trading, and in this case, the decision to allow the Directors to form a separate company who hold the assets is designed to prevent a company closing by creditors seizing assets, therefore shutting the company down, and preventing any attempt they may be making to pay off all their creditors. If, hypothetically, a company has financing issues, the largest creditor could be the bank - who would attempt to mitigate their loss by seizing the assets - the cars, the computer and office equipment, and the tools of the trade. If they did this, the company would be unable to trade - meaning people like us would have no hope of getting paid ever - if they recover, there is a slim chance people like me could get their money, maybe, with the wind in the right direction. If a company is liquidated, then that's it gone!

[paulears]

UPDATE
Got this, this morning.

Quote

Dear Paul

KEL2011 Limited (Formerly Keynote Educational Limited) – Previously in Administration (“the Company”)

Further to your email below to Sarah Bell, I can confirm that Steven Clancy and Sarah Bell were appointed Joint Administrators of the Company on 12 July 2011. They ceased to act as Administrators on 10 July 2012 and the case is now closed. The Company will be dissolved in October 2012.

No dividend was paid to unsecured creditors due to a lack of funds, therefore unfortunately your outstanding invoices will not be paid by the Company.

Should you have any further queries please do not hesitate to contact me.

Yours sincerely

Vedrana Marosevic
For Sarah Bell
Former Joint Administrator

I note a reference to KEL2011 Ltd - a name not known to me before. Registered at the Administrators address.

Quote

Name & Registered Office:
KEL2011 LIMITED
THE CHANCERY
58 SPRING GARDENS
MANCHESTER
M2 1EW
Company No. 06723699




Status: In Administration/Administrative Receiver
Date of Incorporation: 14/10/2008

Country of Origin: United Kingdom
Company Type: Private Limited Company
Nature of Business (SIC):
7487 - Other business activities
Accounting Reference Date: 30/06
Last Accounts Made Up To: 30/06/2009 (TOTAL EXEMPTION SMALL)
Next Accounts Due: 31/03/2011 OVERDUE
Last Return Made Up To: 14/10/2010
Next Return Due: 11/11/2011 OVERDUE
Last Members List: 14/10/2010
Insolvency History
Previous Names:
Date of change Previous Name
20/09/2011 KEYNOTE EDUCATIONAL LIMITED
05/11/2008 RECKONED WITH LIMITED

[slipstream]

Surely you were employed by them as administrators, who should have guarenteed payment as your work had nothing to do with the original company, save the profit from the job would have gone to pay creditors accrued pre administration. Basically the same senario that keeps shops running till they can be sold?