[the kid]

Headline "Plan B backs plan to give out free ear-plugs at concerts"
http://www.bbc.co.uk/newsbeat/18156154 I assume this is after a bunch of other things from Chris Martin about his hearing.

I suppose it's great news, weather people will wear them is a different matter, but are venues not obliged to provide ear plugs anyway or is that just to workers?

[Simon Lewis]

the kid, on 22 May 2012 - 10:55 AM, said:

I suppose it's great news, weather people will wear them is a different matter, but are venues not obliged to provide ear plugs anyway or is that just to workers?

I look at such headlines and ask myself the rhetorical question, "why not play quieter?"... I know there are reasons for loud music, but handing out earplugs is a bit like handing out sunglasses at a nuclear test site ;-)

Venues are not obliged to hand out hearing protection, but they do have a general duty of care. Venues should not just hand out hearing protection to workers (apart from initial protection when overexposure is identified) as the Control of Noise at Work Regulations require reduction of noise at source before PPE is used.

Of course, what actually happens in practice might differ slightly...!

Simon

[Aaron-Hill07]

+1 for simply playing quieter.. I've noticed recently that things have definitely been getting louder over the past two years or so in a live environment and frankly there is no need for it.. I had a discussion with a friend the other day about this, and the argument was that 'it's only too loud at the front, but it needs to be so the sound can get to the back' - alright, he's not a sound engineer but it's a point of view I've seen a few times.

Surely better placed, smaller loudspeakers is better than a bloody great chunk of line-array at full-power across a long room? I know it's all down to the system designers, but it doesn't need to be that loud!

[RichM]

Aaron-Hill07, on 22 May 2012 - 12:01 PM, said:

Surely better placed, smaller loudspeakers is better than a bloody great chunk of line-array at full-power across a long room?

You're never actually listening to all of a line array, just a few of the boxes, depending where you are in the room.

[timtheenchanteruk]

RichM, on 22 May 2012 - 12:13 PM, said:

Aaron-Hill07, on 22 May 2012 - 12:01 PM, said:

Surely better placed, smaller loudspeakers is better than a bloody great chunk of line-array at full-power across a long room?

You're never actually listening to all of a line array, just a few of the boxes, depending where you are in the room.

this being the whole point of a line array

just turn it down a squeeze, PPE is the last line of defence, not the first anyway

The too loud at the front is either a poorly designed system, or the old stack of speakers at the front job. Ive pretty much stopped going to gigs because of the volume levels, pub bands are the worst culprits, especially those that run their kit at the same levels be it in a large 200 capacity room, or a small 50 capacity room

[pete10uk]

When at work I use ear plugs but when attending for fun, the volume is Is part of the appeal.

If yo go to giggs every night or work in the industry then you need to protect YOURSELF, but occasional attendance at loud gigs is really good fun.

[the kid]

timtheenchanteruk, on 22 May 2012 - 12:24 PM, said:

RichM, on 22 May 2012 - 12:13 PM, said:

Aaron-Hill07, on 22 May 2012 - 12:01 PM, said:

Surely better placed, smaller loudspeakers is better than a bloody great chunk of line-array at full-power across a long room?

You're never actually listening to all of a line array, just a few of the boxes, depending where you are in the room.

this being the whole point of a line array

just turn it down a squeeze, PPE is the last line of defence, not the first anyway

The too loud at the front is either a poorly designed system, or the old stack of speakers at the front job. Ive pretty much stopped going to gigs because of the volume levels, pub bands are the worst culprits, especially those that run their kit at the same levels be it in a large 200 capacity room, or a small 50 capacity room

+1 on that. My friends band who insist on running everything at about 8 or 9 on the cab, or turning up so it sounds ok when the drummer plays. I clocked their last gig at about 100 - 110 average in a bar.

[smalljoshua]

I personally like the sort of levels seen at Glastonbury, 95 dBA Leq15 is comfortable to me. The free party guys local to me seem to have got it right too. They run at about 98dBA Peak but just ramp the subs up to 11. That, to me, is a nice sound. Plenty of bass to keep everyone "energised" psychologically and not too much Mid/Hi to cause pain.

Josh

[Simon Lewis]

RichM, on 22 May 2012 - 12:13 PM, said:

You're never actually listening to all of a line array, just a few of the boxes, depending where you are in the room.

...in terms of direct sound, yes. However, depending upon the speaker directivity, room acoustics and speaker aiming it's possible that some contribution from all boxes is made to the reverberant sound field.

[ramdram]

Pete10uk, listening to loud bands is part of the fun...at the time...I've got tinnitus now...

[Biro]

Aaron-Hill07, on 22 May 2012 - 12:01 PM, said:

+1 for simply playing quieter.. I've noticed recently that things have definitely been getting louder over the past two years or so in a live environment and frankly there is no need for it.. I had a discussion with a friend the other day about this, and the argument was that 'it's only too loud at the front, but it needs to be so the sound can get to the back' - alright, he's not a sound engineer but it's a point of view I've seen a few times.

Surely better placed, smaller loudspeakers is better than a bloody great chunk of line-array at full-power across a long room? I know it's all down to the system designers, but it doesn't need to be that loud!

Alas, You must be a lighting person. This is such a typical opinion I have heard time and time again.


Glastonbury volume is good, Josh makes a valid point.


This is the only step the artist can take really, as they can't demand the use of ear plugs - But it is a positive step to try and save peoples hearing. Its then down to the individual as to weather they want to use them enough.


I don't think there is enough awareness among young people about tinnitus however.

[Aaron-Hill07]

Well, no.. I'm not just a lampy, I do audio aswell and do use various line-arrays every now and then. I've recently heard a couple of live shows with line array systems and every part of the room is too loud, no doubt about it.

I'm not a complete idiot, I'm quite aware that Line-array is designed to cover a large space with an equal sound.. I'm also clever enough to appreciate not everyone hears the DIRECT sound from every box.

The point I was trying to make initially is you don't need a loud PA to equally cover a big space.. you need a reasonable volume focussed into the right areas.. I don't think anyone can argue with that, can they? Truth is, people LOVE loud music, otherwise a lot of people wouldn't go to the big loud festivals or listen to their headphones at full volume. Truth is, it's the bass most people will talk about after leaving a festival.. not how good the mid/hi boxes sounded; because it gives you a good feeling!

[dosxuk]

Biro, on 22 May 2012 - 01:57 PM, said:

I don't think there is enough awareness among young people about tinnitus however.

I don't think it's limited to young people. I've had to tell as many "old" sound engineers to turn it down as I have young ones, and age doesn't seem to be a factor in the audience members who approach FOH telling us to turn it up.

[ramdram]

It may be that the "old" sound engineers are deaf as sticks. Deafness creeps up on you over the aeons and "you" really can't tell if it is age related, which affects us all, or caused by too high a sound level when at a concert in your youth, say...until you hear tones and other stuff you know can't be real.

"Even" the BBC did not fully appreciate the protecting of staff from noise in the workplace. We had a bloke get a ruptured eardrum from a single click over our internal phone system (think bakelite handsets). Took about three minutes and then we all got issued with noise limiters to cobble into our headphone leads. There were a number of wire links on the PCB you could cut to achieve what limit you wanted.

It had no affect on the telephone handset of course, which was scrapped. It was the fact he sued the BBC, and won some damages. which provoked the apparent interest in our health.

Anecdote alert: We had an Abba tribute band in a season or two back with hired in kit, engineer, gigawatts of loudness, the works.

The sound engineer, nice "old bloke" that he was, had the level up so high we did get complaints from all over the auditorium (even from the lookalike faction)...he was not bashful about his job and when asked, then told, to reduce the level he just grinned like a maniac and yelled back, quite amicably, "that's what it's all about, man". No, he really did say "man", he was that ancient.

He really did not know how loud it was. The notion of a sound pressure meter was not anywhere near his surviving neuron...I ended up with bog roll stuffed in my ears to stem the blood.

Mind you, the noise got rid of the moles in the picnic area for weeks...either that or they just weren't Abba fans...more Lumsk perhaps?

This post has been edited by ramdram: 22 May 2012 - 05:25 PM

[kerry davies]

My late lamented mate Peter Tinniswood had a character in his books called Uncle Staveley. Having been a gunner during the war his sole contribution to conversation was; "I heard that! Pardon?"

The reason (so I have been told) that young people love loudness and old people find it painful is the stiffening over time of the tympanic membrane and the substance in the inner ear becoming less fluid under high pressure levels. Older people who turn it up to 11 are usually those suffering NIHL since they do not feel the pain that others of the same age suffer.

Something like that anyway! Whatever the physiological reason young people do indeed get more direct input to their pleasure centres from loud music since the substance in the inner ear is stimulated to pass signals faster and more efficiently by high pressure levels.

Just as with everything in nature, there is a price to be paid. Pardon?