New Pa advice needed

[dfinn]

Hello,

 

My school should soon be having a revamp of its hall and in that comes a new sound system ;) . Anyway I would like to know what ammount of kit we should be looking at buying to fill it.

 

The hall is your average sized high school hall and will seat 200 people.

 

I was thinking of asking for them to build 2 subs into the stage for added runble and either just 2 250w rmx cabs on the walls but I think that having 2 smaller satelite speakers would be better as I think you dont get an echo effect. (I think thats called delay speakers isnt it). Anyway would 4 smaller cabs or 2 bigger cabs be better?

 

Ok on the amplification front is it better to fit the amps closer to the speakers and have an XLR patching system goign from back of the hall (control area) to the front where the amps could be located (maybe in the stage front too?) Or is it better to have the amps at that back close to the desk and then have speakon patches that go to the speakers on the walls and bins in the stage?

 

as for the mixer front I think we could manage with 20 channels +

 

I arent too bothered about the microphones atm as I will either get a multicore or get XLR patchs fitted.

 

1 question where would you out radio mic recievers? close to the desk or connect them to the other end of the patch panel closer to the stage area?

 

thanks

 

Daniel

[James]

Daniel, Some general questions first.

 

What will it be used for?

Who will operate it?

Have you engaged the services of an acoustics consultant yet to model the space of you hall to calculate what speakers would work best and what positions they will work in?

Have you installed cabling and passive splitters from the ariels to the radio receivers?

Will the system be rigged and de-rigged on a use by use basis or will there be a room set aside for it's permanent installation.

Who will be responsible for the long term maintenance of the system once installed, and where will the budget come from for system maintenance?

 

Now some answers to some of the questions you asked.

 

is it better to fit the amps closer to the speakers

 

Yes, Speakers typically have very low impedances so the resistance of the speaker wire can be a major factor. With a 4 ohm speaker and say 1 ohm in a long speaker wire, you can loose almost 25% of you amplifier power doing nothing but heating up speaker wire. (Bit of a waste that)

 

I think thats called delay speakers isnt it

 

Sound travels at approximately 1 foot per millisecond.

Electricity travels almost instantly.

If you have a pair of speakers 40foot before the stage you will hear the speakers before the person on stage, you will hear the real sound as an echo to the re-enforced sound.

With a properly installed and timed system the "delayed" speakers will be delayed to the stage so you hear them at the same time, or fractional after the real sound This sounds a lot more natural and realistic.

 

1 question where would you out radio mic recievers

 

EITHER, with the A2 onstage or FOH with the ariels on stage.

 

 

Good Luck

 

 

James

[dfinn]

What will it be used for?

 

school productions, assemblys etc

 

Who will operate it?

 

Only trained pupils ie me and all others in the technical dept, drama techers, not general techers and non trained pupils.

 

Have you engaged the services of an acoustics consultant yet to model the space of you hall to calculate what speakers would work best and what positions they will work in?

 

Will ask that tomorrow, we have had quotes for the entire hall about around 20k but about 6-10k for sound if thats possible because we only need wiring for lighting as we have all lighitng kit already.

 

Have you installed cabling and passive splitters from the ariels to the radio receivers?

 

???? dont confuse me here ** laughs out loud **

 

 

Will the system be rigged and de-rigged on a use by use basis or will there be a room set aside for it's permanent installation.

 

I would like it to have the 2 bins installed into the stage and the tops around the walls so they are permanant, I would like lal cbales from speakers to be fitted into a patching system along with XLRs.

 

I would like amps, eq and xover in one flightcase on castors and cd player and mini disk in another and mixer cased separately

 

Who will be responsible for the long term maintenance of the system once installed, and where will the budget come from for system maintenance?

 

we are getting a drama technician soon I think.

 

Daniel

[Just Some Bloke]

we are getting a drama technician soon I think.

 

Daniel

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

If so, wouldn't it be worthwhile waiting till the technician starts and getting their input? Otherwise they will be landed with a system that they may not like.

[MikeR]

If a dedicated technician is starting soon, I would have thought it would be best to get him / her to design the system. That is after all partly what theyre being paid for.

[dfinn]

well the show we need it for is in less than 2 months and I dont think we will have the technician in time.

 

I am going to take the comments you have given to school and see what we can do,

 

thanks a lot

 

Daniel

[paulears]

plenty of good advice so far.......

 

If your school is like the many others I've been involved with, to get a budget approved, somebody must have submitted a detailed costing for govs and senior management to approve. This will probably have been the 'quote' you mention, but don't forget that the supplier no doubt guessed what you want, and compared it with what they have available. The needs of the odd assembly are very different from the music depts rock gig and the drama people play requirements. Mounting speakers permanently is a bad idea - the patch idea makes sense, but not really much point if the speaker end of things is fixed. Security will dictate if it's possible to use rack style set ups - MUCH better from my experience as it is more versatile.

 

The ONLY way to make this work is to get the new technician to sort it. Remember that you will be leaving, no matter what. Something that works for you may be hopeless to the next 'you'. If you are not careful, you will get a load of kit that doesn't do anything properly. Ideally, a consultant separate from any supplier will give best advice.

 

On the subject of delays - maybe not worth worrying about, as the destructive effect of the hard surfaces of the room may make the small time delays insignificant.

 

 

p

[dfinn]

Hi,

 

Well I am just getting ideas together of what equipment we will be getting.

 

I like the idea of 4 permanantly mounted tops, a XLR mobile multicore, and amp, eq, cd , md, mixer asll in one case and radio mic receivers in the other.

 

Daniel

[Freddie]

Not sure how much use this is, but anyway:

 

My school's 300 seat theatre (seating banks on 3 sides, small stage, square LX rig above the arena floor):

Speakers + Amps

A sub (made by TOA) in each side of the stage and 2 cabs (also TOA) on each side (occasionally they are taken down and 3 of them are hung on the lx rig pointing towards the seating banks). The amps (even more TOA) are on the LX balcony looking over the stage (near where the speakers almost always hang)

 

Cabling + Mics

XLR Stage Box connected to a big multiway socket at FOH control point (also connected to mini stage box next to amps for main mix. Radio mic receivers next to mixer FOH, range has never presented a problem.

 

Mounting

CD players, eq, xover, mic recievers and gate/compressor are in a permanently flight cased rack so it can be easily moved FOH for shows or onto the stage when the theatre's in use.

 

YAY!!! I'm now a regular! ;)

[James]

well the show we need it for is in less than 2 months and I dont think we will have the technician in time.

 

I'm affraid this would be one of the worst reasons for rushing a purchase of a system.

 

This would be a perfect opertunity to find a local PA hire company, with whom you can start tu build a good relationship.

 

Contact them and get them to bring a system in for this event. See how this system works, if you like it consider elements for the basis of your rig, if not then look elsewhere and you have learned.

 

James

[dfinn]

Hi,

 

yeh we r either going ot buy or may hire depends on what they want to do,

 

thanks

 

Daniel

[paulears]

a daft question maybe, but without a technician, who will be there to make sure everything goes smoothly, repairs the broken leads and equipment, arranges licences, raises orders? If this is down to a nontechnical teacher, sounds like the nightmare is about to begin!

[dfinn]

welcome to school technical paul.

 

OK, we have had many companies come in and quote us on how much it will cost but I really would like to have some say in what we get because I am sound technical now so I would like to have a system that suits the way I work.

 

Daniel

[paulears]

nice idea - but what happens when your new technician is appointed and won't let you do what you're doing now?

 

This has come up before, but although you appear to be on top of things now, the school are likely behind the scenes to just go off and do their own thing. The one thing teachers hate is for students to know more than they do. They can't slag you off when you make a ####-up, they have to justify what you do to the management, and this reveals their lack of skill too - so they back pedal. They'll take the word of an outside contractor, but pay no attention to you, even if you're right - of course, they'll tell you they're doing everything to make sure it goes your way.

 

Don't hold your breath!

p

[dfinn]

Hi,

 

Thats why I keep in contatct with staff and ask for updates every day to make sure I dont get left behind.

 

Daniel