PA system for school

[dfinn]

Hello,

 

I am one of the technical team at my school. I am trying to get an idea into the kind of sized system our school will need to buy/ hire for a production we have coming up and for use in future work.

 

The production is my fair lady and will be held in your average school hall holding about 200 people a night. The cast will be about 70 - 100 people.

 

I was going to do lighting but have decided to have a change and do sound.

 

I would like to know what size PA system I would need as the kit we currently have isnt up to the job.

 

I was thinking along the lines of just 2 tops, 2 bass speaker setup.

 

the amplification to suit the speakers and hall size.

 

I then think I am going to be producing the sound on a computer and then putting it onto mini disk.

 

I really need to know a littl moreabout what microphones I will need as up ot yet I know little about the actual play. Has anyone done this performace in a similar situation and what did you use.

 

there will also be a live orchestra playing so I will need ot run them through the system too.

 

We currently have 3 acoustic/ instrumental mics, 2 boudry mics and 2 normal vocal mics. I know we will have to hire radio mics but I dont know how many?

 

thanks in advance

 

Daniel

[Just Some Bloke]

If you have an chorus of 60-80 people, then I think those numbers with everyone singing should be loud enough to get over the orchestra quite well (don't forget that the show was written before the days of radio-mics). I would have thought, though, that you should try to get anyone who sings a solo line a radio-mic. This can be done with some sharing, but make sure that people go off stage and have time to change when you allocate mics.

On the speakers front, I'm not sure how much bass you'd want to put through your speakers. I'd leave the orchestra acoustic, if I were you, which would mean you're only amplifying voices. Not much need for subs there. All depends on what effects you're playing really. If you're doing thunder, then fair enough, but otherwise maybe a good pair of full-range speakers would be better than some cheaper tops with separate bass bins.

As I suggested earlier, remember that when the show was first written nothing would have been amplified at all, so just go for getting the voices over the orchestra and you'll be cooking on gas IMHO!

[dfinn]

Thanks

 

Daniel

[danburns]

Hi,

Just an idea as to what others are using for their shows:

 

At school, we have just aquired a new PA - 1.3K per channel, with a top and bin per channel. It came with a desk (all behringer gear) that is quite nice. We have set it up (or are setting it up - first sound check today) with 3 Shure overhead mics (easyflex range) and 2 boundary mics(again easyflex).

 

We are also going to borrow 4 radio mics. possible use one or two more. Plus my basic rig for backstage calls and show relay(Yamaha naturalsound domestic amp with 2 small monitor speakers taken off the desk Aux outs as well as a radio SM58 caried on my person!) AND the head of music wants foldback

 

We're doing Bugsy with about 25 people. Due to a new music teacher this is the most/best gear we have had for a long time. Our stage is small (the size of a largeish classroom) and our hall can seat 200ish. Now I just need new lighting - although I am renovating some of our our old fixtures - Discarded because the bulbs blew (and thats the only reason - I checked).

 

If you want any more info on our setup, let me know,

 

Dan ;)

[dfinn]

do you mean the hk lucas, acotr and projector type systems?

 

Which one would be best for a school hall with about 200 seating

 

Daniel

[paulears]

Hang on.....

 

You said you're going to be producing the sound on a computer - I'm assuming you mean sfx - please don't say you are going to run track on this show. Musically, it's a nightmare. With a cast of that size, if you are using the supplied score, you'll have a biggish orchestra - lots of flute parts and clarinets. These will have trouble getting over the singers, especially in the bigger scenes. With the equipment available to you, I'd get an outside company in - you don't have kit or skills within the school to make a good job. If you have never mixed a show like this, it's not a good one to start on. What are you like with scripts? This show has many fairly complex sections that will make your hair curl. Boundaries on the stage edge probably won't help you much as with such a large cast, their foot noise will overshadow any hope of dialogue pickup. Radios will save the day, but if you need to keep prices down, then look forward to a lot of mic swaps.

 

Oh yes - sfx wise, the horse race. left to right panning, better still left house, left stage, right stage, right house. It's pretty vital the cast action and the sfx run together. Many years ago, I went to Yarmouth races, went right down the end of the course where the crowd don't go and recorded the horses going past. In MONO with an omni. Panned around with some extra sub freqs it worked very well. It was a surpise I had to be quite savage with the eq as real horses didn't sound quite like I imagined.

[neil_f]

I work at a quite well equiped secondary school, and we are puting on les mis in the new year, we have a 16x4x2 mixing desk (sound craft), a das amp and 2 das speakers, it works well in are school hall that can hold 375 seats.

 

I agree that radio mics are the way to go for you, but then you have to think what type, be it a tie clip, hand held, or even a head set.

 

might be teaching you to suck egg's here, so sorry if I am

 

tie clips- easy to hide, but a pig to get right with out a 32 band eq ( NOT TO SAY YOU CANT DO IT WITHOUT)

 

hand held- you get a good level out of them, but you also then have the cast all holding mics or geting them out of there back pocket when they sing.

 

hedset- I have used them once and found then to have qualties of both the tie clips and the hand helds. you get a good level out of them, but you do then have a the cast with a head set on, it also makes changes in mic quicker than a tie clip, but not as quick as a hand held.

 

I agree the the band should be left alone, but mybe have a over head to put a bit in the main mix and any foldback that you might have, also helps if there are any quiet solo's in the band.

 

mabe put some floats on the roof of the stage to do a general pick up with out geting the foot setps

[James]

Hello,

 

I am one of the technical team at my school. I am trying to get an idea into the kind of sized system our school will need to buy/ hire for a production we have coming up and for use in future work.

 

What does the director want in their vision for the production. If you are sound designer, then this will define what you have to do, and therefore what equipment you have to hire to realise this vision.

 

The production is my fair lady and will be held in your average school hall holding about 200 people a night. The cast will be about 70 - 100 people.

 

I've worked similar sized productions in similar sized rooms disclaimer I do not know your performance space and I do not know it's accoustic properties so these are generalities /disclaimer

 

you should not have any problem with 70 -> 100 people being audible. To satisfy DDA I would rig a single cardiod condenser*1 on FOH bar 1 central pointing at the stage fed to your IR or RF system via a compressor set at something like 3:1 from -6dBu and shelved at something like +6dBu if neccessary.

 

I was going to do lighting but have decided to have a change and do sound.

 

That is fine as long as you are happy with what you are doing, Sound is a lot more complicated than lighting*2 and a lot more obvious when it isn't perfect.

 

I would like to know what size PA system I would need as the kit we currently have isnt up to the job.

 

I don't think you need to worry about size, but how you use it, and how it will fit with the directors vision for the production and how it fits your design ideas.

 

I was thinking along the lines of just 2 tops, 2 bass speaker setup.

 

Why?????

 

for 200 people 1 top might be enough if that is how you realise the directors vision.

 

the amplification to suit the speakers and hall size.

 

You get the amps to match the speakers, the hall size is immaterial to amp choice. You pick the speakers to match the design and the hall and then the amps to match the speakers.

 

I then think I am going to be producing the sound on a computer and then putting it onto mini disk.

 

as paul says, Are you talking SFX here?

 

I really need to know a littl moreabout what microphones I will need as up ot yet I know little about the actual play. Has anyone done this performace in a similar situation and what did you use.

 

Depends what you are trying to do with it.

 

there will also be a live orchestra playing so I will need ot run them through the system too.

 

Why?

 

A full orchestra should be loud enough in a hall for 200 without reenforcement unless there are acoustic problems that you haven't mentioned.

 

We currently have 3 acoustic/ instrumental mics, 2 boudry mics and 2 normal vocal mics. I know we will have to hire radio mics but I dont know how many?

thanks in advance

 

Daniel

 

Daniel,

 

What are you trying to do.

 

I am doing a musical in an arts centre in a month.

 

I met with the director for a provisional production meeting a week after I received my copy of the script and score.

 

I listened to her ideas for the production.

 

She wanted a natural and subtle design for re-enforcement and subtle use of SFX to create a further sense of realism to sparse "black box" sets.

 

She had already engaged an MD who was arranging a small band.

 

I discussed band location as there was no pit,

 

Some of the options I suggested were remoteing the band as this would mean I could mix the band to match the singers and not have to use radios.

 

She wanted the band in the same space as the performers.

 

I took my notes and my noted from meeting with the MD and scale drawings of the venue.

 

I measured out response pattens from different loud speakers and using the scale drawings of the venue calculated what I needed to cover the area.

 

Do you see what I'm getting at. The ultimate aim defines the preparation.

 

This director wanted subtle and discreet but audible.

 

I am going to a rehearsal on Saturday to hear the band rehearse in position to decide what, (If any) re-enforcement I need for the band. As they play I will walk the venue. They will be performing on a balcony above the stage behind a slatted screen so I am prepared for anything from no re-enforcement.

 

(DI on MD Keys to 1 pair Control 1's above stage for stage foldback)

 

to full re-enforcement.

 

MD421 Cello, c391 Violins, DI Keys, DI Bass, Beta57 Guitar, MD421 Brass, D112, Beta57, + 451 Percussion. SM57 Flute.

 

But I have made no decisions as I have not heard them in position yet.

 

For the cast I am using 12 mic's with my A2 running around like a lunatic swapping packs about.

 

I'm using more 451's to cover the stage for backstage and loop.

 

My initial design was for 3 full range boxed flown in a centre cluster with 1 further box either side as under balcony fill.

 

4 further full range boxes and 4 subs are for SFX playback.

 

I am using a digital desk for midi recalled mutes and delays and an analouge desk for band submix.

 

Good Luck.

 

 

 

James

 

 

*1 assuming a proscenium production with no dialouge taking place anywhere other than the stage.

 

*2 Lighting you deal with 3 primary dimensions, With sound you have 4 to worry about.

[dfinn]

Hi,

 

wow a lot of questions to answer.

 

I cannot answer all of these questions as 1 I dont know what your on about and 2 we havent been told.

 

We are getting outside professional help but I really want to do sound as I can do lighting and tbh I osmtimes get bored of it so thought sound would give me another avenue.

 

Could you guys with your amazing amount of experience give me some tips on basic sound tech work through all aspects of it. If you could that would be excelent as I can print them off and use them.

 

thanks

 

Daniel

[paulears]

Perhaps if I tell this tale, it may ring bells. A local college to me run a major musical each year and I've mixed it for years - However for a number of reasons I ended up in the on stage band, playing. The most experienced person they could find had just finished an HND in Music, concentrating on music technology, sound operation and production skills. He was also a 'mature student'. It was a disaster. Constant feeback, mic mutes missed, cast onstage without mics being made live - a simply dreadful balance, no idea of how to solve problems at all.

 

I'm not being rude, but do you really want to put yourself in this position? If you haven't done it before, you really need to be with someone who has to learn from them. If there is nobody at all to help you, how will you do it? Don't forget that unless the lights actually plunge the stage into darkness, no one notices. In sound, every person in the audience is an expert, and will all have VERY strong views about the sound. On top of this comes the parent problem - little Josies mum thinks she wasn't loud enough, her mic was bad, the op made Jenny louder when......... bla bla. Everyone will be at your throat and the brown stuff will fall from on high!

 

 

Would you visit the dentist if you knew he'd never done a filling before before? I could read books, study manuals, talk to people on the Blue-Room and still #### it up.

 

 

If you don't know what we're going on about and have been kept in the dark, then how on earth will you be able to do it?

 

Sorry for the knock on the head - but you are being set up to fall a long way.

p

[dfinn]

Hi,

 

I said in my last post we are getting outside pro help to come and help.

 

This is our schools first major performance ofr donkeys so everyone is in the same boat.

 

Daniel

[P. Funk]

Dan,

 

You aren't going to pick up the years of experience and knowledge needed to run a show effectively off a free web forum.

[dfinn]

read my above post please, we are having outside help.

 

Daniel

[Bobbsy]

Hi,

 

<snip>

 

We are getting outside professional help but I really want to do sound as I can do lighting and tbh I osmtimes get bored of it so thought sound would give me another avenue.

 

Could you guys with your amazing amount of experience give me some tips on basic sound tech work through all aspects of it. If you could that would be excelent as I can print them off and use them.

 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

It would be practically impossible to give you the sort of tips you want in a forum situation. The information we could provide would be too simplistic and too general to be of any use. The trouble is, while you can do lighting simply by eye, (lighting men please don't shoot me..I know there's more to it than that, but I hope you see what I mean!) to do sound in any way properly, you need a good basic understanding of the physics and engineering involved.

 

What I can do is recommend three books that might help:

 

First, "Audio Made Easy (or how to be a sound engineer without really trying" by Ira White. If you can ignore the jokey title, this book provides a very good basic introduction to the principles involved. While he doesn't go into any more than the most basic description of the physics and engineering, what he DOES include is at least accurate.

 

Second: "The Yamaha Sound Reinforcement Handbook". This is NOT a book to sit down and read cover to cover; rather it is a very useful reference for everything from mathematical formulae to how to wire connectors. I don't know of any sound professionals who don't have a copy of this on their shelf.

 

Third: "Sound for the Theatre" by Grahame Walne. This one takes the basics from the two above and starts to show how they apply in a theatre situation.

 

Finally, another great resource would be the Theatre Sound List Server. This is a group frequented by the true pros in this area...Broadway and London sound men, the man who designs Cadac boards, and so on. If you keep your questions specific (i.e. not just "how do I do sound for a show") they are extremely helpful...I once had a long exchange about a particular effect for "Scrooge" with a very pleasant chap....who turned out to be the man who designed the sound for the original West End run! The sign up page for the group, also containing some useful links...check out Kai Harada's pages...is at http://www.brooklyn.com/theatre-sound/ )

 

Good luck!

 

Bob

[dfinn]

Hi,

 

Thanks, I will definately look into getting some text book recourses.

 

thanks

 

Daniel