[IanCurrie]

Hi, new here as of today, my reason for posting is this: I was on a school panto tour with our Christmas road show in our last week of term time, I work at Salford Uni, and whilst doing the fit up in one of the school halls I managed to cut myself with my own leatherman whilst cutting a piece of tape from a cable with the blade. Later when we got back to base the wound opened again and needed re-dressing, the first aider who did this filed a report and as a result of that report an investigation followed. I was not hospitalised, had no time off work and was out of action for as long as it took the bleeding to stop, about 20mins. As a result of the investigation our HSE are now saying that a leatherman is not what I should have used and isn't fit for purpose. This to me is rediculous. I'm pretty sure none of our HSE staff have ever worked in theatre and would not have clue one how a one hour set up for a kids Christmas show might pan out. I told the HSE that in my opinion the leatherman was very fit for purpose. Is this H&S gone utterly bonkers?

[Brian]

IanCurrie, on 09 January 2012 - 01:30 PM, said:

... our HSE ... our HSE staff ... I told the HSE that in my opinion the leatherman was very fit for purpose. Is this H&S gone utterly bonkers?

I assume you don't mean 'HSE'?

The HSE, or more fully, the Health and Safety Executive wouldn't normally get involved in this sort of thing.

I'm guessing you are referring to a colleague responsible for health and safety within the University?

[IanCurrie]

Brian, on 09 January 2012 - 01:56 PM, said:

IanCurrie, on 09 January 2012 - 01:30 PM, said:

... our HSE ... our HSE staff ... I told the HSE that in my opinion the leatherman was very fit for purpose. Is this H&S gone utterly bonkers?

I assume you don't mean 'HSE'?

The HSE, or more fully, the Health and Safety Executive wouldn't normally get involved in this sort of thing.

I'm guessing you are referring to a colleague responsible for health and safety within the University?

Hi, indeed sorry for any confusion, the guy signs himself as follows MInstLM
Health & Safety Coordinator

Health, Safety and Wellbeing

Human Resources Division

[timsabre]

What does he say you should have used instead?

[Shez]

And what purpose is it not fit for (bearing in mind it's a multitool) and specifically why is it not fit for it?
Sounds a lot like someone banning things without a full understanding of what they're talking about...

[kerry davies]

Using blades anywhere in association with power cables or even control cables is a personal no-no. Leaving tape on cables is another. Using blades in a safe manner is mandatory and cutting oneself with a blade is almost certain to result from poor working practice.

Saying all that his reaction depends entirely on what the report said and whenever anyone is cut by a blade they are using themselves questions need asking before blanket condemnation of any tool.
Were you wearing gloves?
Did you use the tool correctly? (Cutting away from yourself.)
Is there another method or tool for the work?
Did the work need doing in those conditions, that place, that manner?

Were I, personally, to say that any action was wrong I hope that I would then go on to explain what the correct action should have been. In this case I would politely ask for his guidance on the correct tools and procedure, and I mean politely.
On the general point of reporting incidents then I look at "near-misses" as "near-hits" and they should be reported as well as even minor injuries. Sensible first aider, sensible system at your place. Well done them. The next cut could just be arterial.

[GreatBigHippy]

Surely there is a tried and trusted method for dealing with incidents such as this?

1) File paperwork.
2) Jump to conclusions
3) Send all employees on a 2 week "knife safety" training course, preferably somewhere warm.
4) Leave paperwork to gather dust, never speak of it again...

In all seriousness he may have a point. Only insofar as, if you were removing the tape with your Leatherman whilst one of those plastic, "not even a complete moron could cut themselves with this" knife was right next to you, then yes, that was probably bad. But given the circumstances, time constraints and probability of something horrible happening I think "reasonably practicable" kicks in and you chalk it up to experience.

EDIT: And what Kerry said. I may have assumed competency on your behalf. But if you were using the knife in an unsafe manner (or under unsafe conditions) then it is good that you are bought up on this. Although your initial post seems to suggest an outright ban on using leathermen, which I can't think of many great justifications for.

This post has been edited by GreatBigHippy: 09 January 2012 - 02:54 PM

[cedd]

Is their issue with the use of a knife or the fact the knife was part of a multitool?

A good knife is essential kit in my tool kit. I'd never try terminating a comms cable (100 pair, steel wire armour normally) without one. I know quite a few seasoned sparkies who also use them a lot.
So the use of a knife as a tool is (at least in the places I've worked) accepted practice still. Correct use of a knife is something else entirely though! Was it the right tool for the job? Were there better tools for the job available? Was a leatherman used because you just happened to have it on you, when a proper knife or pair of snips were available? All these things only you can say, and the opinion of your H&S man might be different from your own.

I also know quite a few companies who wince at the use of a leatherman, but would happily hand you a knife! I've personally never liked multitools, I'm very picky over my tools and they certainly aren't all shiny brand new ones, they've been collected from all over, but they're all decent quality. I'm not often without them, certainly not on theatre work. A multitool to me just seems like a second best, when the right tools are available. When you're working away from your tools or are caught out with an unexpected need, sure they have their place, and I'm sure others will disagree and would never be separated from their trusty multitool, but it ain't for me!

I've just bought a new knife as it happens. One of the ones on offer over christmas from Flints. Very impressed with it, but one of the blades reminds me of a certain scene from Crocodile Dundee. Something along the lines of "That's not a knife (reaches for his bowie knife), THAT's a knife!".

[ramdram]

Regardless of the circumstances for the moment, IC, you cut yourself, full stop. It was an accident.

The First Aider followed protocol and passed the matter up the chain. The H&S bods decided, after due consideration on their part that the knife, as you were using it, was in their judgement not fit for purpose.

Kerry mentioned that it would have been open to you to use a "proper tool". This you did not do thus rendering yourself a candidate for cutting yourself, which you did.

Your views or Kerry's or mine are of no interest to the H&S bods. It is their job, or mandate even, to discover/investigate inappropriate ways of working and endeavour to put a stop to any such practices.

(Very) hypothetical case...Were you to be cross examined, say, you might be asked if you knew of a safer way of cutting the tape...note I used the "safer" word. You would see instantly the way things were going and you could only reply "yes"...you might be prompted "and what might that be?" You might reply "scissors".

I have a pair in my toolbag for just this occasional (and cutting gels). And, it might have been open for you to use the scissors "tool" on your Leatherman.

The final question might then be, "Yet, you chose not to use a pair of scissors, or the scissors tool on your Leatherman even though you knew it to be a safer way of working...why did you not use scissors?"

You have no answer that will satisfy the court. You then hear, "no further questions".

The point here is you could have avoided the accident had you used a pair of scissors, or possibly cutters. You trusted to luck and cut yourself.

We should not forget either that we do have the very young and sometimes very impressionable youngsters reading the forum. It may not be the best example to firstly not use a knife safely (after all, you did cut yourself) and then express the view that H&S bods were wrong, as in they were "utterly bonkers".

This post has been edited by ramdram: 09 January 2012 - 07:20 PM

[bigclive]

To put actual HSE meddling into perspective, many contractors on new theatre equipment installs have banned the classic Stanley Knife as being too dangerous and liable to cause cuts. DUH!

As far as the Leatherman goes... I think that it's an absolute deathtrap of a tool in an industry where it inevitably gets used on electrical equipment. It's all-metal construction means it's basically a solid metal hand-electrode for ensuring maximum path of electrical current through the holder. Sometimes I wonder how many people have been electrocuted while using multitools.

On the other hand though... It's a very useful tool for general quick fixes.

[matt_h]

Seeing as just leathermans are banned, and you still want to use a multitool....




Buy a Gerber!





(PS. For the pedantic this is entirely tongue in cheek, a list of your correct choicesourses of action are listed above my post!)

[dbuckley]

My surprise is that the OP didn't fill out the accident book when the incident first occured.

[woody2]

bigclive, on 09 January 2012 - 08:01 PM, said:

To put actual HSE meddling into perspective, many contractors on new theatre equipment installs have banned the classic Stanley Knife as being too dangerous and liable to cause cuts. DUH!

HSE do not ban things they never have, H+S on the other hand......

[Simon Lewis]

dbuckley, on 09 January 2012 - 09:12 PM, said:

My surprise is that the OP didn't fill out the accident book when the incident first occured.

I suspect that there is an understandable reluctance to fill in "accident report" forms for all but the most serious incidents, if the likely outcome is a lengthy and (at times) unwanted overeaction to a simple, genuine accident.

I accept that if harm has taken place, it should be possible to minimise or eliminate it, but gentle guidance and training would be preferable to the usual "x is banned", you must use "y" and must have the 20 page manual and a a three yearly training course on how to use it...

[IanCurrie]

Thanks for all your views, a few things, H&S haven't said I can't use a leatherman, just that they don't think it's 'fit for purpose'. There are no scissors on my leatherman. I usually just break the tape but sometimes if someone has been a bit thorough with the taping of a coiled cable then it just won't break so I cut it, yes away from myself, unfortunatly into the path of my other hand. I think I'll buy a Gerber! And some scissors!

Cheers