Digital Mixer for small church

[Bazz339]

Apologies if I have posted on this before. A search of my posts did not show anything similar

I am looking to upgrade a system in a church I suspect it will end up being a simple analogue desk but.....

 

Is there a digital desk such a Souncraft UI16 or IDR 16 (with remote panel) that could be coupled to a physical fader panel, maybe by midi or similar for simple use by non technical people whilst allowing more technical users to access more features using a tablet, laptop or mobile phone. Automatic mixing and built in feedback suppression would be advantageous and an expected working life of at least 10 years.

 

It would need to power up to a dedicated preset rather than last configuration.

[timsabre]

I have also been looking for something like this for our church and if you want physical faders I've come to the conclusion there is no such product.

 

I have been experimenting with an X-Air and a midi fader panel into a remote laptop, with a bit of coding you can get this working but there are so many things that could go wrong I suspect it'd prove unreliable.

 

My nearest solution is an x32 producer but it's too far over the budget.

[Jivemaster]

It's my opinion that once the desk needs booting up than it's too complicated for community venues unless you provide an operator. There is too much to go wrong if someone miss programmes the desk, and too much cost if someone breaks it. With a manual desk there should be the opportunity to leave people to use the desk who are not IT specialists. In my experience helpers at community events vary from 12 to 80 years old with assorted computer literacy.

[Dave m]

Have you thought of a simple idiot proof mixer and more complicated one in parallel? Switch over only when the need arises

[bruce]

One of our venues (very large converted church) has a fairly nice sound system - Nexo FOH, QSC delays etc. But it needs to be able to be used in a simple “self drive” mode, as well as for fully staffed events. So, we have an AMX controller driving an IDR-8 (AMX also controls projection etc)

 

The AMX screen has several common “presets”: eg

 

Lecture: activates the lectern mic, the tieclip mic, and computer audio

 

Wedding: Activates the radio mics and the cd/MP3/ipod inputs

 

and various others. Volume controls for the various sources are also on the touch panel. Compression and limiting all done in the IDR8. So it’s reasonably “idiot-proof”.

 

And when you’re doing a “big event”, you press the (password-protected) “manual” button, and everything is routed thru the 32-channel desk in the balcony.

[S&L]

funnily enough I was in a church on Tuesday night, setting up an x-air for a band that use the church to rehearse - they are also considering an x-air for the church. I ended up running using the church mac via wifi... perfectly serviceable for simple stuff but as has been said digital means layers of complexity that a beginner is unlikely to be able to handle well. the mac made it close to a physical service, much easier than mixing on a tablet, but not as fluid as a physical surface. add the cost of a pc/mac to the cost of an x-air and you may as well buy a x32 producer, which for a beginner or older amateur would be a little easier.

 

 

I'm not quite sure where Tim is coming from, but although I haven't tried it myself, from everything in the wiki manual, using a x-touch controller with an x-air is straight forward. but again you are paying almost the same as the producer.

 

 

another possibility is the qu series, which have various levels of access to lock out beginners from all but faders. I think the access levels are only available on the 24 and 32.

 

all the x/m 32 have first 8 channels on an automix function if it's enabled, which is on your wish list. you are shooting for the moon to get feedback detection too I would guess. the android app does this for the x/m32 and the rta does a decent job of indicating feedback peaks - but you really do need to be a confident and competent operator to take advantage of it.

 

your last bit about powering into a preset is the most worrying...lose power in the middle of use and it boots back to something different than what you were just using. that could cause untold havoc. even something as simple as a mic is muted for the session and left where it would otherwise cause feedback. power fail, boot to default scene and while you are still trying to figure out what happened with the power, it's feedback city - this is why consoles generally boot to the last place you were. meanwhile, if you can't load a scene / snapshot for a digital mixer AFTER it's powered up then you really shouldn't be near one at all.

 

to me it seems like you are pulling in three different directions

1. simple

2. digital rack

3 faders.

in my view, you need to work out which of those three is the over riding priority and cross out the other two.

[timsabre]

I was operating the x-air from an akai midimix which is only about £80. It works well giving you 9 physical faders, but you need a laptop to convert the midi to osc commands and that makes it quite complicated to set up.

[Bazz339]

Thanks to everyone for all the replies

 

It's my opinion that once the desk needs booting up than it's too complicated for community venues unless you provide an operator. There is too much to go wrong if someone miss programmes the desk, and too much cost if someone breaks it. With a manual desk there should be the opportunity to leave people to use the desk who are not IT specialists. In my experience helpers at community events vary from 12 to 80 years old with assorted computer literacy.

 

Which is why I would want the desk to boot up to a dedicated preset on power up which I know the Idr and I am sure many other desks can do. I would imagine many more sophisticated have an option to boot to a preset or last known state on power up

 

Have you thought of a simple idiot proof mixer and more complicated one in parallel? Switch over only when the need arises

 

Yes, the simple mixer could be the existing mixer amp.But more likely any mixer provided (Unless we went digital) would be fairly simple such as an Soundcraft EPM. I am considering a physical solution with most of the knobs covered by a locked lid, only the faders readily accessible and using the gains to set the volume such that the faders are in a line.

 

 

One of our venues (very large converted church) has a fairly nice sound system - Nexo FOH, QSC delays etc. But it needs to be able to be used in a simple "self drive" mode, as well as for fully staffed events. So, we have an AMX controller driving an IDR-8 (AMX also controls projection etc)

 

The AMX screen has several common "presets": eg

 

Lecture: activates the lectern mic, the tieclip mic, and computer audio

 

Wedding: Activates the radio mics and the cd/MP3/ipod inputs

 

and various others. Volume controls for the various sources are also on the touch panel. Compression and limiting all done in the IDR8. So it's reasonably "idiot-proof".

 

And when you're doing a "big event", you press the (password-protected) "manual" button, and everything is routed thru the 32-channel desk in the balcony.

 

I know the an Idr will do at least some of what I want with some external faders and selector panels. Can't remember whether it has automatic mixing or graphic eqs available in the outputs, I will have to have a look at the control software again

 

Out of interest how do you achieve the re-routing through the 32 channel desk? Inputs in parallel ? Change over relays?

 

 

funnily enough I was in a church on Tuesday night, setting up an x-air for a band that use the church to rehearse - they are also considering an x-air for the church. I ended up running using the church mac via wifi... perfectly serviceable for simple stuff but as has been said digital means layers of complexity that a beginner is unlikely to be able to handle well. the mac made it close to a physical service, much easier than mixing on a tablet, but not as fluid as a physical surface. add the cost of a pc/mac to the cost of an x-air and you may as well buy a x32 producer, which for a beginner or older amateur would be a little easier.

 

 

I'm not quite sure where Tim is coming from, but although I haven't tried it myself, from everything in the wiki manual, using a x-touch controller with an x-air is straight forward. but again you are paying almost the same as the producer.

 

 

another possibility is the qu series, which have various levels of access to lock out beginners from all but faders. I think the access levels are only available on the 24 and 32.

 

all the x/m 32 have first 8 channels on an automix function if it's enabled, which is on your wish list. you are shooting for the moon to get feedback detection too I would guess. the android app does this for the x/m32 and the rta does a decent job of indicating feedback peaks - but you really do need to be a confident and competent operator to take advantage of it.

 

your last bit about powering into a preset is the most worrying...lose power in the middle of use and it boots back to something different than what you were just using. that could cause untold havoc. even something as simple as a mic is muted for the session and left where it would otherwise cause feedback. power fail, boot to default scene and while you are still trying to figure out what happened with the power, it's feedback city - this is why consoles generally boot to the last place you were. meanwhile, if you can't load a scene / snapshot for a digital mixer AFTER it's powered up then you really shouldn't be near one at all.

 

to me it seems like you are pulling in three different directions

1. simple

2. digital rack

3 faders.

in my view, you need to work out which of those three is the over riding priority and cross out the other two.

 

I am just kicking the ball around. I don't see that I am pulling in different directions. What I want is a system that presents to users with basic access as a row of volume control faders, other users can plug in a laptop or use a tablet to access more parameters.

 

With regard concerns about booting up to a preset. Currently we use a mixer amp which is simply switched on and off all volumes set and left alone. I would set any digital desk such that when powered up all mic channels were live as currently happens, at a volume which does not cause feedback issues. Thereafter people can either mute or adjust inputs as necessary.

 

With regard to feedback suppression, I don't like using it but think I need to consider it for this application as the vicar is softly spoken, quite happy to use external unit if necessary.

[Simon Lewis]

The Allen & Heath iDR system ticks several boxes... the PL6 remote can be set up as a very simple interface and the iDR itself can work as a functional mixer (albeit with a laptop).

It is, however, older technology and not quite so easy to programme / set up.

 

Perhaps a small A&H dLive with an IP8 remote would do the job? :-)

 

http://www.allen-heath.com/media/IP-8_Web_Front.jpg

[Bazz339]

I will have a look at that thanks. Not familiar with the A&H digital offerings.

[TomHoward]

Can the X-touch Compact or if it's possible X-touch extender be connected to an X32 for control?

The immediate answer seems to be 'maybe not completely' but it may work with the X32 rack via MIDI control or ethernet DAW control.

It may be that not all meters and scribble strips etc work but it could be plausible with some work, as all that info is carried for the iPad remote via the ethernet.

 

Edit: seems like out the box it doesn't, though you may get some of the functionality working using an alternative control protocol.

The X-Touch full sized version appears to provide full access but it looks as bad as the desk, x-touch compact may be a possibility.

[timsabre]

X-touch plus xr18 costs nearly as much as x32 producer.