Jump to content

equipment upgrade


tiranathon

Recommended Posts

Hi there, I'm not quite a beginner more a novice as I know the basics. However I am in need of some advice. Knowing me I'm trying to achieve the impossible out of my naivety ** laughs out loud **.

 

So the situation is this, I've inherited a lighting system for a local am dram group. Having learnt the basics of stage lighting at school (I was on the lighting crew!) ** laughs out loud **. I felt quite at home with our 30 year plus old system.

 

We currently have

 

6 x 6 channel strand analogue dimmers (ancient)

1 x zodiac 48 channel dux control lighting desk

1 x DMX / MIDI DECODER Model DMX648

Various lanterns. Spots/floods etc. All very old lamps, but 99% still work

 

Now sadly the kit is so old it's starting to fail on me. Firstly the lamps under load I.e all channels up, flicker up and down. Sometimes quite noticeably.

2 of the strand dimmers have failed completely. I actually had to decommission 1 of them halfway through a live show as it became so unstable I was worried it would explode into flames ** laughs out loud **. And 1 channel of anot her has also fail though this may be just a fuse.

 

The lighting desk is temperamental. The channel 1 doesn't work properly and sometimes the entire board doesn't power up correctly.

 

So now I'm figuring I need to think about upgrading all this kit.

 

Though 1 major hurdle is the budget!!!

 

However been scouring eBay etc with a view and go ahead to replace what I can as budget allows.

 

I've managed to replaced one of the lost strand dimmers with a zero 88 betapack 2. Which works like a dream and I was very pleased. However my question is this.

 

I know the system being analogue and not digital. Can I find a board and or controller and decoder to enable the use if mire modern lighting fixtures. i.e. led lights etc

 

Or am I stuck using analogue. This is where my knowledge ends ** laughs out loud **

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I know the system being analogue and not digital. Can I find a board and or controller and decoder to enable the use if mire modern lighting fixtures. i.e. led lights etc

 

Or am I stuck using analogue. This is where my knowledge ends ** laughs out loud **

 

It sounds like your system is already digital, though I have never heard of your lighting desk.

 

Presumably the DMX648 converter is connected between the lighting desk and the dimmers. The lighting desk is outputting digital (DMX) which is then converted by the DMX648 to analogue for the dimmers. So you could connect LED fixtures directly to the desk, assuming I have interpreted how the system works correctly.

 

Good call on the betapack, that should serve you well. The old Strand stuff was pretty bomb proof, I would try to get it repaired rather than buying cheap chinese tat dimmers on Ebay. On the other hand if you can find the more pro stuff like betapacks, then they're good, but they don't come up very often.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I know the system being analogue and not digital. Can I find a board and or controller and decoder to enable the use if mire modern lighting fixtures. i.e. led lights etc

 

Or am I stuck using analogue. This is where my knowledge ends ** laughs out loud **

 

It sounds like your system is already digital, though I have never heard of your lighting desk.

 

Presumably the DMX648 converter is connected between the lighting desk and the dimmers. The lighting desk is outputting digital (DMX) which is then converted by the DMX648 to analogue for the dimmers. So you could connect LED fixtures directly to the desk, assuming I have interpreted how the system works correctly.

 

Good call on the betapack, that should serve you well. The old Strand stuff was pretty bomb proof, I would try to get it repaired rather than buying cheap chinese tat dimmers on Ebay. On the other hand if you can find the more pro stuff like betapacks, then they're good, but they don't come up very often.

 

Thanks for the reply, though I'm not sure im quite as opptomistic, However, I'd love you to be right and me to be wrong ** laughs out loud **...

 

The board (after scouring the internet) is ZODIAC 36 Level Memory Lighting Board Model MPD361

 

Channel Outputs:-

 

0 to +10V DC 10mA max (with series diode)

 

( 0 to -10V DC using 2 PNC1801 modules)

 

DMX512

 

MIDI Music

 

MIDI Show Control

 

Output Connectors:Analogue:-

 

2 x 25 way D connector - Standard

 

6 x XLR7F sockets - Optional

 

6 x DIN8 sockets - Optional

 

SOCAPEX or BICC multipole - Optional

 

 

DMX512:- XLR5F socket

 

 

MIDI:- 3 x DIN5 sockets (IN, OUT, THRU)

 

 

Power Supply:- 220 - 240V A.C. 50Hz. (110 - 120V A.C. 60Hz by changing internal links)

Supply Connector:- IEC320

Supply Fuse:- 0.5Amp 20x5mm fitted at rear

Audio Input:- 100mV-50V 10KOhm balanced floating

Audio Connector:- 0.25" Mono Jack

 

How does that look?

 

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

...

DMX512:- XLR5F socket

...

How does that look?

 

 

Looks like a DMX desk to me (still can't find it on the internet though)

 

So is the DMX/MIDI decoder connected in between the 5 pin XLR on the desk , and the dimmers?

 

http://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0CCEQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.multiform-lighting.com%2F%3Fdl_id%3D21&ei=x4vSVObhM8e2UaWfgIgN&usg=AFQjCNEPjfaZ2bsZQ5xcFGi-nHnsUXtwMg&sig2=f7zHF-bXNYpQeD2LN3qAYg

 

is the link to the board manual, and yes the decoder is between the board and the dimmers... just watched a tutorial about DMX lighting, looks really interesting but I take it I would need to totally rewire the stage rig?

 

BTW I did notice in the manual, although it says dmx512, apparently in the DMX part of the manual, it only supports 128 channels. confused.com I am ** laughs out loud **

 

Side note, if its capable of this new DMX marlarcky, would it be possible to run a dual dimmer/direct DMX system? or would I be best of with 2 control boards and 2 systems, while we slowly transfer over to new kit, I know we wouldn't be able to afford outright to replace the 40 or so fixtures we currently have, and have a new board, plus all the wireing/power involved.

 

 

 

 

Your thoughts?

 

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

DMX512 often doesn't contain 512 channels, that's just the maximum possible. In fact a 36 channel desk would often only transmit 36 channels, but the manual you linked to says the desk has a 128 channel soft patch so you can, for example, make slider 1 control channel 100 instead of channel 1. Looks like quite a reasonable desk, very similar to a Zero88 Jester.

 

So you've got 36 channels of dimmers, every slider on your desk is linked to a dimmer. If you want to control, say an LED par can with R,G,B channels, you could disconnect the 6th dimmer pack (31-36), set the address on the LED can to 31 then it will be controlled by sliders 31 (red), 32 (green), and 33 (blue) on the desk. You can connect several LED cans with the same address and they will all do the same thing, the DMX cable just daisy chains round them all.

 

You don't need to rewire what you've got, just plug the DMX into the 5 pin socket on your DMX converter to continue the chain.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Fancy that - I'd never heard of Multiform until a few weeks ago and then someone asked me if I'd fix a Zodiac for him. Now here's another one coming out of the woodwork! It's actually quite a nice compact desk for an oldie. It works a bit like a Zero88 Sirius and in the manual they even use the term "level match" which I first encountered in the Sirius manual - don't know whether it's a common term. It does indeed have DMX and analogue (on a DB25S) outputs. And just like a Sirius there is a leaky old Mempac 3.6V battery to replace before it rots your PCB away! If you are intending to keep the desk in service I strongly recommend you get that replaced ASAP. The one I had in had managed to leak into the EPROM socket with disastrous consequences for the code that was running from it. However, after replacing the socket, cleaning up the pins and repairing a couple of tracks it was once again in fine form.

 

Dave

 

Edit: Just noticed that timsabre compared it to a Zero88 Jester - definitely something Zero88 going on here :-)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Well I've just been using a jester and the zodiac instruction manual sounded very zero88. I'm sure they could have drawn inspiration from the old Sirius range.

 

Anyway to the original question, you've got some good professional quality kit there which is just in need of some tlc. As you said you don't have much budget, my advice would be to stick with it and don't be tempted to junk it and buy cheap lower quality stuff.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Fancy that - I'd never heard of Multiform until a few weeks ago and then someone asked me if I'd fix a Zodiac for him. Now here's another one coming out of the woodwork! It's actually quite a nice compact desk for an oldie. It works a bit like a Zero88 Sirius and in the manual they even use the term "level match" which I first encountered in the Sirius manual - don't know whether it's a common term. It does indeed have DMX and analogue (on a DB25S) outputs. And just like a Sirius there is a leaky old Mempac 3.6V battery to replace before it rots your PCB away! If you are intending to keep the desk in service I strongly recommend you get that replaced ASAP. The one I had in had managed to leak into the EPROM socket with disastrous consequences for the code that was running from it. However, after replacing the socket, cleaning up the pins and repairing a couple of tracks it was once again in fine form.

 

Dave

 

Edit: Just noticed that timsabre compared it to a Zero88 Jester - definitely something Zero88 going on here :-)

 

I know the board is old. When I started to use it and repaired it the first time I found out it was a 1994 model.

 

Thanks for the information guys you have been really helpful and filled me with new hope for my little failing system.

 

If I do the knock out the 31-36 channel on the decoder how many DMX channels do you think I would be able to use? Before I run out and buy a load if lamps.

 

Also which ones would you recommend? I'm itching to buy something to test

 

Also I've been looking at these USB DMX things with all the open source pc based software.. would that still talk to what I've already got as well as opening up more channels and universes to play with?

 

I saw entec do a reasonably priced module and software. But don't want to lay out the expense if it won't work

 

Thanks again in advance

 

Chris

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I know the board is old. When I started to use it and repaired it the first time I found out it was a 1994 model.
Old??? That's positively SPARKLING compared to some kit we guys use/own on here! I'd say I have gels older than 1994!! :D

 

Seriously, though, '94 is not at all old in this business. Lanterns, especially, if looked after can last for decades. Desks can also give long and fruitful service.

If I do the knock out the 31-36 channel on the decoder how many DMX channels do you think I would be able to use? Before I run out and buy a load if lamps.
If the manual says you can use 128 channels from the DMX out, then that's what you can assign. Each dimmer takes up a single DMX channel, and if you ever do investing anything more complex like LED in the future, each of those will have a set number of channels PER LANTERN, but let's not go down that route just yet.
Also which ones would you recommend? I'm itching to buy something to test
I'd control your itch just now until you've sorted what you can from what you have in stock - as you say, budget is restricted, and as others have said, DON'T be tempted to just go for some cheap disco DMX tat from Ebay - much of the cheap stuff is NOT really suitable for theatre work - you gets what you pays for... :)
Also I've been looking at these us DMX things with all the open source pc based software.. would that still talk to what I've already got as well as opening up more channels and universes to play with?

 

I saw entec do a reasonably priced module and software. But don't want to lay out the expense if it won't work

Again - hold your horses.

 

Yes the PC solutions MIGHT suit what you MIGHT want to do down the line, but let's look at getting you walking before you try to run, yes? Save your hard-earned until you have a better idea of a) where you are and b) where you want to get to and c) by when.

 

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Well I've just been using a jester and the zodiac instruction manual sounded very zero88. I'm sure they could have drawn inspiration from the old Sirius range.

 

Anyway to the original question, you've got some good professional quality kit there which is just in need of some tlc. As you said you don't have much budget, my advice would be to stick with it and don't be tempted to junk it and buy cheap lower quality stuff.

 

thanks for that, I was under the impression from a repair bloke I spoke to 4 years ago when the Zodiac board wasn't working properly and he refused to repair it, that all my kit was out the arc and useless.

 

I actually repaired the board myself, turned out it was a broken wire underneath the key switch, so I was finally able to set memory and programs for shows. instead of permanent manual control. so that showed him ** laughs out loud **

 

Although it has one insurmountable fault in that the little gooseneck light refuses to ever work!! even with a new bulb... so my little desk lamp with a dark blue jel on it will have to suffice :)

 

BTW, regarding the old strand dimmers, are they worth keeping/repairing, if so does anyone know of a good firm near Bath/Bristol that could do it?

 

All the kit we inherited from John Twine who owned his own lighting firm, and he donated it to us. However since he's no longer in the trade, I don't know who to go for. or if its even worth exploring, or should I keep scouting for Betapack 2's? the betapack 3's looked incompatible with what we have. Allthough im probably mistaken.

 

Thanks again

 

Chris

 

 

 

 

I know the board is old. When I started to use it and repaired it the first time I found out it was a 1994 model.
Old??? That's positively SPARKLING compared to some kit we guys use/own on here! I'd say I have gels older than 1994!! :D

 

Seriously, though, '94 is not at all old in this business. Lanterns, especially, if looked after can last for decades. Desks can also give long and fruitful service.

If I do the knock out the 31-36 channel on the decoder how many DMX channels do you think I would be able to use? Before I run out and buy a load if lamps.
If the manual says you can use 128 channels from the DMX out, then that's what you can assign. Each dimmer takes up a single DMX channel, and if you ever do investing anything more complex like LED in the future, each of those will have a set number of channels PER LANTERN, but let's not go down that route just yet.
Also which ones would you recommend? I'm itching to buy something to test
I'd control your itch just now until you've sorted what you can from what you have in stock - as you say, budget is restricted, and as others have said, DON'T be tempted to just go for some cheap disco DMX tat from Ebay - much of the cheap stuff is NOT really suitable for theatre work - you gets what you pays for... :)
Also I've been looking at these us DMX things with all the open source pc based software.. would that still talk to what I've already got as well as opening up more channels and universes to play with?

 

I saw entec do a reasonably priced module and software. But don't want to lay out the expense if it won't work

Again - hold your horses.

 

Yes the PC solutions MIGHT suit what you MIGHT want to do down the line, but let's look at getting you walking before you try to run, yes? Save your hard-earned until you have a better idea of a) where you are and b) where you want to get to and c) by when.

 

 

 

 

 

thanks ynot, good advise. Excuse my enthusiasm, it just seemed a whole new world has opened up from me, and I'm under a lot of pressure from the group to fix the lighting system as we do 3-4 live shows a year, and the last years shows were all frought with lighting issues, and as I'm the ONLY one there that knows any wiff of knowledge about lighting systems and how they work/control them, they lean on me for answers.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

BTW, regarding the old strand dimmers, are they worth keeping/repairing, if so does anyone know of a good firm near Bath/Bristol that could do it?

 

Won't necessarily be the cheapest option, but you could always try Stage Electrics whose head office is in Bristol.

 

As for are they worth keeping, that all depends on what models they are, what faults they have and how much the spares/work to replace them will be.

Are they red or black? (Or green...?)

 

Betapacks - whether they're ver 2 or ver 3 they WILL run off DMX (The older beta 1s were just analogue as I recall)

 

If you can find any of these as supplementary or replacements at reasonable cost then go for them.

 

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

BTW, regarding the old strand dimmers, are they worth keeping/repairing, if so does anyone know of a good firm near Bath/Bristol that could do it?

 

Won't necessarily be the cheapest option, but you could always try Stage Electrics whose head office is in Bristol.

 

As for are they worth keeping, that all depends on what models they are, what faults they have and how much the spares/work to replace them will be.

Are they red or black? (Or green...?)

 

Betapacks - whether they're ver 2 or ver 3 they WILL run off DMX (The older beta 1s were just analogue as I recall)

 

If you can find any of these as supplementary or replacements at reasonable cost then go for them.

 

 

 

 

I just noticed the betapack 3's don't have the round plug sockets on the front, and seem only to have 6 trip switches, so I couldn't figure out how I would plug in my lights? am I being really thick?

 

My stand kit are blue, ill take some pics and post them, they look pretty archaic ** laughs out loud **

 

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

If dimmer packs die, which they do - repair is often fairly simple for anyone unafraid of a soldering iron. It's simply because if it's a 6 channel pack, and one is duff, then you can test and compare the working ones. very often a simple multimeter will let you compare readings from the good channels, and point you in the direction of the faults. The control boards are trickier, but faults there usually impact on everything - but because they don't carry loads that short-circuit, they tend to be unstressed and fail much less.

 

Historically, because fuses were/are an everyday issue - blowing fuses was just a fact of life and less often an indication of a problem. It is common to run two lanterns from a single channel, and when one lamp fails, it takes out the fuse. Replacing the fuse brings back on just one of the pair - so spotting where a problem was is fairly easy. This also meant people developed ways of saving dimmers - so loads of odd repotting would gradually happen as channels died. Sometimes the fuses didn't fail quick enough and the thyristor or triac would fail, gradually reducing the dimmer's channels until too many were gone, when it became worth the effort of removing them and fixing them. My own theatre has 60 dimmers still plugged in 24/7 put in in the early seventies. Of the 60, about 45 still work, but repairs are now too destructive - removing a board often resulting in breaking another so I just leave them alone, adding new dimmer packs every now and again. Next to them sit 42 added in ones.

 

 

If you found the fault under the key switch, then you may be able to cure the totally dead dimmers too, simply by comparison and substitution. The parts are still available, and not too expensive.

 

I too also agree that you should stick with the system, and once you know the operational weaknesses of the system as a whole, then buy extra kit. If you would like a nice even stage wash, with current kit this is now possible at a modest price, in 3 or 4 colours, using three or four faders on your desk. The beauty of DMX is that it allows every pice of kit you buy and hang up to be an individual, with separate control, or a piece of kit that does the same as others - a big group of lights. If later, you need to isolate just one or two, it's easy. If your lighting equipment is a bit thin - then think washes and specials - the washes light the whole stage, the specials pick out individual things. When your kit was new, we were just starting to frown on flood lighting, we used Fresnels for area washes and profiles for specials. Now the new LED gives us back floods in bright vivd colours, and the need for all sorts of lighting kit eases away a little. When budgets are big, we use everything - but for a small stage, my preference is flood and specials, and no longer so many Fresnels.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I just noticed the betapack 3's don't have the round plug sockets on the front, and seem only to have 6 trip switches, so I couldn't figure out how I would plug in my lights? am I being really thick?
Ah - They come in several 'flavours' - usually 15A round pin, 16A Ceeform or the European Schuko sockets.

And yes, you can also get them as hard-wired packs, certainly the new ver 3s.

 

http://zero88.com/products/dimmers/betapack3/

 

 

My stand kit are blue, ill take some pics and post them, they look pretty archaic ** laughs out loud **
Blue??

OK - is there a model type on there?

Mini-2 or Tempus...?

 

Ah - hang on - the Act 6 range were blue if I recall...

Try and find them on the Strand Archive.

 

http://www.strandarchive.co.uk/contentssearch.php?global=1&type=kitcat&search=2

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

We have placed cookies on your device to help make this website better. You can adjust your cookie settings, otherwise we'll assume you're okay to continue.