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DMX desk


sunray

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tHi All.

 

To cut a long saga down to size a local AmDram need to replace a failing 12/24 channel desk, they are intending to get a Showtec Showmaster 24 as it is a close match to the existing, but to date no one has attempted to learn how to record scenes on it and it's only used in 24 channel (well actually only 18 work as I found when I tried to add another 4 channel pack!) manual mode. Their current fixed system consists of only 3x4channel dimmer packs and some LED floods, total of 16 channels.

 

I am trying to persuade them to go for something bigger to allow for presetting scenes. Staying with the make, an Easyfade36 (cheaper but has more controls to confuse them) or even better a Showmaster 48.

 

So the question - has anyone any experience of the make or even better these models?

 

My own kit only consists of a Trancesion SDC816 so I'm not in a position to offer too much first hand advice.

 

Thanks in advance.

Ray

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It's normal for the person who does the lights to have a bit of priority over what equipment is used. How much is the budget - because sadly, the manual lighting desk choice is getting smaller and those products left are more suitable for nightclubs rather than theatre. I used two preset 24 channel desks when I was 16 in 1974, and the idea of going back to controls of that era is not a pleasant one. If you have technophobes controlling what is purchased, you're in trouble. If you buy one brand new, modern, modest priced LED light, it will now use up a quarter of your channels. Basic lights have outgrown these kinds of controls, and while you have enough channels now, every time one of the old lights fails, your problems are going to get worse and worse.
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I would strongly discourage them from buying any of the "basic fader-per-channel preset" desks like the Showtecs and similar clones you mentioned.

- Nobody likes them, only tolerates. That particular family is basically unusable as a theatrical memory desk, so I'm not surprised they don't bother!

 

As Paul said - they are definitely going to be using some DMX LED colour-mixing lights in the very near future.

Even the very cheap (<£40) LED Pars are now brighter than some of the older small tungsten halogen, and three/six of those would completely fill the small/large Showtecs.

 

I would certainly recommend trying to find quite a bit more budget, then you can get something that will last and handle the kit you'll be using in the near future.

- And have proper phone (and email) support available.

 

For small amateur venues like this I would recommend an ETC ColorSource 20 (supports 40 luminaires, regardless of DMX channels used).

Others would suggest appropriate Zero88 and Jands consoles in the same rough price bracket.

 

Take a real look at all of them - ask which consoles the smaller theatres near you have.

- As you're in Kent, you could pop into the ETC office in London for a demo. Wales might be a bit of a trek but I'm sure Zero88 would make time if you wanted to.

 

This would be a pretty large investment for them so you'd want to get the right one.

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&

It's normal for the person who does the lights to have a bit of priority over what equipment is used. How much is the budget - because sadly, the manual lighting desk choice is getting smaller and those products left are more suitable for nightclubs rather than theatre. I used two preset 24 channel desks when I was 16 in 1974, and the idea of going back to controls of that era is not a pleasant one. If you have technophobes controlling what is purchased, you're in trouble. If you buy one brand new, modern, modest priced LED light, it will now use up a quarter of your channels. Basic lights have outgrown these kinds of controls, and while you have enough channels now, every time one of the old lights fails, your problems are going to get worse and worse.

 

I cut my teeth of a Junior8 and another wooden version of it which I built at school around 1969/70 and I absolutely agree that the thought of going back to that is scary but I haven't progressed much from there. My bag is sound but, as always, work hand in hand with the other trades so I'm accustomed to hanging and focussing fittings under artistic direction and operating a desk for that purpose.

The bank balance is zero and it will be funded from future profits, possibly under loans from members so £150 sounds a lot to them.

I did the lighting as well as sound for he last show and I get the impression that may continue as one of the tech's is likely to be moving away and the other has more than ten years on me, certainly not capable of climbing a ladder. There was extatic praise from the whole group on the job I did, it was the first time they had worked with 20 sound effects & cues from the script, plus I added some extra LED's using my SDC816. Show lighting has suddenly become a learning curve for me and my interest in getting something other than a similar replacement is a bit selfish. .

Their existing LED units are 4channel and mine are 3channel but I do note that many of the newer types are 7 channel so I follow your comments with ease.

The current fittings are unlikely to change in the near future due to the previously mentioned lack of funds and and perceived lack of requirement additionally I don't think this particular church hall would justify much expansion.

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It could be worth looking for something 2nd-hand (Used Lighting, or a well known auction site), or you might even find a blue-roomer with an old desk that is looking for a good home (I could possibly lay my hands on a Sirius-48 that is merely taking up space, but it's a fairly big beast & would almost certainly need some attention).
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Think carefully about suiting the desk to all the users of the stage. My old am dram got into trouble with the hall owners for locking the stage lighting so that only their person could use it when several of the hall hirers expected to use the hall and stage.

 

If your hall and stage is multi user then your stage lighting needs to be multi user, which precludes computer desks, but you need a decent memory desk to run good shows, you may need two desks, a fader per channel for simple states and a fully functional computer desk for shows. At least with DMX you can plug and play whichever desk you need.

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Why not scour ebay for one of the old Zero 88 controls - some quite nice ones are now ancient enough to go for very little money - but £150 is frankly silly. If the group are this detached (and I find that difficult nowadays, with typical entry ticket prices).

 

Every amateur group seems to have these problems, and over the years, I think I've become used to the people on committees who understand very little, rule the roost and want spanners in every works they can find. No money for costume, lights, sound - as if they're optional, yet they spend money on the other stuff?

 

I suspect whatever you do won't meet with approval.

 

Tell them you need £500, find a nice control for £350, and 'save' them £150.

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If it's just for you to use on shows, then the usual B-R suggestion of chamsys +magicDMX dongle could make sense, as that can be made to work for very little if you a) already have a pc and b) don't want a proper control surface. You'll get good support from Chamsys and from plenty of members on here who use the software and consoles although equally you'll get great support going Zero88, ETC, Jands or whatever). I've found ETC support to be outstanding, for example.

 

Add in a control surface though and the cost goes up quickly.

 

So if it has to be used by everyone then you have a bit of a problem.

 

Our amateur group use an Ion, but we're in the extremely fortunate position of having our own theatre so we don't have to accommodate other user groups, and we have a team of operators and programmers. Also, you won't get an Ion for 150 quid :-)

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Why not scour ebay for one of the old Zero 88 controls - some quite nice ones are now ancient enough to go for very little money - but £150 is frankly silly. If the group are this detached (and I find that difficult nowadays, with typical entry ticket prices).

 

Every amateur group seems to have these problems, and over the years, I think I've become used to the people on committees who understand very little, rule the roost and want spanners in every works they can find. No money for costume, lights, sound - as if they're optional, yet they spend money on the other stuff?

 

I suspect whatever you do won't meet with approval.

 

Tell them you need £500, find a nice control for £350, and 'save' them £150.

 

This group is a small, say a dozen, elderly folk who have run it for many years, it has not moved on at all in the 15 years or so that I have been watching the shows, which are always funny - especially the serious ones! My initial involvement was an emergency repair to the sound system. I've been there since!

 

For this group a typical show will be one or two performances to 100 guests tops at say £5 = £500 or if they're lucky £1000.

Any use of the hall has to be paid for, lets allow 2 evenings for setting the stage, 3 for rehearsals, 2 for shows and one for stripping = £400

Lets say £100 for costumes, set building etc.

Half of the takings goes to charity... oops all gone.

 

The funny thing about the group is their almost universal mistrust of change but they greet any improvement with gusto, they tell me what sound effects they want. I make three, one exactly as they request and two how I think it shoud be and they have usually chosen my versions after a vote.

I am finding the pre show events as entertaining as the shows.

 

So getting back to desks, thanks for the pointers to makes and yes I have been drooling over the small selection of s/h desks on an auction site, but generally those available within budget look in a worse state than the existing faulty unit or are quite bulky/elderly. A Zero88 Sirius springs to mind here but I assume the later machines are a different ball game. I also have to remember that other users of the desk have little technical expertise and the simple set of faders is a must for them.

 

I have installed a number of Behringer LC2412 in nightclubs and I have seen several of those s/h but had no involvement with using or programming them.

 

As mentioned before I've had little experience of running show lighting and really appreciate this help.

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Desks like the Showmaster 24 or 48 can be used to set scenes quite easily, and simply for non-technical users (OK, the setting up is harder, but the use of those scenes is easy). IIRC you set it up like a chase, and use the bottom faders - fader 1 is scene 1 etc. This allows flexibility of cross fades, ease of jumping back to a different scene, and use the first row of faders to add an extra light or two if needed.

 

If you're definitely not getting additional multi-channel fixtures in the future, this is probably the only option for your budget.

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The Zero 88 Frog series could be worth a look if you can find one cheap enough that works.

The Fat Frog can handle 12 'fixtures' (either movers or simple LEDS) in addition to 24/48 generics.

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Think carefully about suiting the desk to all the users of the stage. My old am dram got into trouble with the hall owners for locking the stage lighting so that only their person could use it when several of the hall hirers expected to use the hall and stage.

 

If your hall and stage is multi user then your stage lighting needs to be multi user, which precludes computer desks, but you need a decent memory desk to run good shows, you may need two desks, a fader per channel for simple states and a fully functional computer desk for shows. At least with DMX you can plug and play whichever desk you need.

 

This is deffinitely a multi user hall, it's a typical church/village hall that seats 100 or so and hosts the usual selection of child care, keep fit classes, womens groups etc. I have been using is for 7 years to run quizzes and was told at the outset that the stage is privately owned and out of bounds, did I listen? Nah, and half of the drama group have been coming to the quiz too without comment. As a hirer lighting has never been mentioned but providing facilities for others is not even a consideration in this case but it's a good point to raise.

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I arrived at my local am dram venue in 2009 to find a couple of 12 channel analogue desks running 18 channels of dimming. They had a Strand D54 desk and a protocol converter and I managed to get a DMX/D54 converter for around £25. I then bought a Behringer LC2412. I hate it!! We now have a Strand 200 24/48 which is really fit for our purpose and is easy for those folk who are more familiar with older systems. For complicated shows I use MagicQ from a laptop but do the tech and lighting rehearsals on the Strand and then transfer it to MagicQ. MagicQ is also used as my back up for times when I don't need all the power of the ChamSys. Using all this which cost less than £300 (if you disregard the Behringer!!) gives me a lot of flexibility and plenty of DMX power when I need it for LED fixtures, smoke machines and strobes etc. Haven't gone into movers yet!!
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Once got called to a site where a Showmaster 48 was driving some LED parcans (manufacturer unknown) and Z88 Betapacks. Parcans worked a treat but the Betapacks behaved erratically even though they were in the middle of the DMX chain. Problem traced to Showmaster only outputting a universe of 49 DMX channels. Once the showmaster DMX was converted through my Artitic License Microscope to get a full 512 universe, the Betapacks worked without fault.

 

To maximise the variety of kit you can use and minimise incompatability issues, in the first instance I would go for a desk that outputs a full universe of 512 channels.

 

K

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