Rob_P Posted August 7, 2015 Share Posted August 7, 2015 TLDR: I am trying to get my head around the PPL licencing requirements for pre-show, curtain, and scene change music and am now very confused. Can anyone advise if pre-show/interval background music typically falls under the venue PPL licence, or needs to be separately licenced at the PPL "per minute" rate? Details: We are taking a comedy show up to Edinburgh Fringe (40 seat hotel conference room venue), and had been aiming to have background music playing whilst the audience enter, and short snippets between a couple of the sketches. The relevant PRS licences are in place through the venue/fringe central arrangements. PPL seems to be another matter, and I am receiving very mixed messages. The guidance on PPL licences received from the Fringe states that "Background music, which is played while the audience is entering and exiting, should be covered by your venue, so you will not need a licence for this use". In an attempt to clarify about scene change music, I contacted their helpdesk, who suggested by phone that this would all count as background music. Upon chasing, they then stated by email that all the music, INCLUDING pre-show background music, would need to be licenced for the show – it seems that they somehow count music playing when the audience enter as different from the background music in the venue! This worries me, since I have always assumed that pre-show music is covered by the venue's licences, but this suggests that every show should have its own PPL licence for this, paying at least the £72.14 minimum charge each time. I have asked the venue but am awaiting a reply. Can anyone advise? Currently it seems safest to cut the music completely, which would be a shame. Thanks! Edit- Trying to fix formatting! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
richard Posted August 7, 2015 Share Posted August 7, 2015 The fringe has a specific PRS deal link which means that if you come under certain categories they take a % of your ticket income to pay to PRS, while the venue should have the PPL license which is usually sufficent (I've never known of anyone needing to get a second one) The fringe website state that: Do I have to pay for music played while the audience are walking in and out?No, your venue should have a background music licence which will cover music played in performance spaces, public area bars etc while the audience enters and exits. You need to make contributions for the music you use within your performance. They also state on their site that for "Shows using only incidental, curtain music and music during scene changes": PRS for Music will not make a separate charge for these, assuming a background music licence is in place for the premises. Shows are still required to submit a PRS for Music declaration through the Fringe Society form. So I think you're OK - my problem is I doubt much of the money they raise actually gets to the artist! But that's a separate issue! Richard Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paulears Posted August 7, 2015 Share Posted August 7, 2015 The basics are pretty straight forward, but the entire thing is quite impossible to do sometimes. For instance, for a play - the music played as curtain music, or incidental music is usually music that the actors wouldn't hear, would be covered by the form here. For music events with live music, then this set list form should be used. Most theatres will already have an agreement with PRS, and if they have such a thing, then the production does not need to do it. 'Normal' theatres outside the west end in towns and cities can pay for the incidental music for about fifteen quid a week, I think. You also need a PPL license to play prerecorded music as walking in and out music - so you pay PRS and PPL - the details for PPL are here. Now if you can manage that lot, you're better than me. In the past five years not a single one-nighter has provided me a set list with the details required to fill in those forms, and my own venue, after getting into trouble with PRS, pay them a box office percentage, plus the usual PRS license for music in the bars, foyer etc. PRS when negotiating this never mentioned these forms at all, and they don't do it. So you have some information - but what to do with it is far more difficult to decide. I suspect processing a nightly set list would be expensive to administer for a low house and box office take which is the norm for many venues nowadays. Taking the straight percentage of the money much easier. It also means that playing my own PRS/PPL registered music no longer generates any income for me! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob_P Posted August 7, 2015 Author Share Posted August 7, 2015 Thanks guys. As you say, it is confusing! I'm sure that we are ok with PRS - As Richard says, there is a special arrangement for the Fringe, and we would fall into to no charge band. The confusion was down to the wording in an email from PPL: <snip>"I will be able to check if the venue holds a licence as this will cover for the use of background music within the premises, however you will need to obtain a PPL licence if you are using background music during the entry and exit of audiences and during intervals. This is clearly outlined in the attached tariff guides attached to this email. The venue’s licence covers them for background music within the premise but not as part of a performance."</snip> I took this as a requirement for a separate PPL licence for the pre-show music, but I can see how this could also be satisfied by a venue licence. Maybe the music is back on, since this would certainly fall within the remit of "pre-show music" on the theatre PPL licence linked to above. My head hurts now :-( Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paulears Posted August 8, 2015 Share Posted August 8, 2015 I'm also pretty certain that the liability for this rests with the venue, NOT the production company, which is why many won't waste any time and money doing it - leaving it in the hands of the venues. On the number one touring circuit, where the percentages can be very serious money, then it's a permanent on the table topic for discussion and negotiation. At the less prestige venues, it's far less an everyday issue. After all, walking in and out music is often whatever is laying around, or the artiste remembered to stick in the bag. Ours is mainly stuff left behind after dance shows! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ynot Posted August 8, 2015 Share Posted August 8, 2015 I'd agree that PRS and PPL is pretty much down to the venue on the whole.We do an annual return based on attendance and box office take (declared as taken by the user companies mainly) and it's never the easiest form to complete. However, as has been said, how this manifests into payments going to the actual artists whose music is played is beyond me, as we've NEVER been asked for specifics of what tracks are used and when. And if we were ever asked it would be a complete NIGHTMARE to try to manage for a predominantly amateur venue... :(Which is why I've never pushed the question with them to be honest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peza2010 Posted August 8, 2015 Share Posted August 8, 2015 every now and then prs will pay me a few quid, presumably for one of the very small fry tracks I have published and because I have signed up to PRS. Someone somewhere must be owning upto playing it out? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
themadhippy Posted August 9, 2015 Share Posted August 9, 2015 wot confuses me is why the band who wrote the song need to fill in a prs form for performing there own work Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
adamharman Posted August 9, 2015 Share Posted August 9, 2015 wot confuses me is why the band who wrote the song need to fill in a prs form for performing there own work So that PRS can keep a big chunk of the money for their "admin costs"...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peza2010 Posted August 9, 2015 Share Posted August 9, 2015 wot confuses me is why the band who wrote the song need to fill in a prs form for performing there own work So that PRS can keep a big chunk of the money for their "admin costs"...... Not strictly true. When I play with my band and perform our own material and fill out the form, we make a small amount of money, and more so than not filling the form Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
themadhippy Posted August 9, 2015 Share Posted August 9, 2015 But how does that small amouunt of money compare with the amount the person for paying the prs pays? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paulears Posted August 9, 2015 Share Posted August 9, 2015 I'd rather give PRS a chunk of the money than get none, which is what would happen without them. Everybody moans about PRS and PPL, but every now and then money comes in, often from the most unusual sources. Like a piece of piano music used in a NFW video produced in the Californian sunshine, that I'd never have found about about. Wasn't much, but the system works for me. I can't think of a better way than the agency? After all, actors, singers, dancers, lighting designers all have agents, and all pay them a commission for the work they put their way. PRS and PPL is exactly the same. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peza2010 Posted August 9, 2015 Share Posted August 9, 2015 But how does that small amouunt of money compare with the amount the person for paying the prs pays? That's Largely irrelevant isn't it?comparable to the fact that you could still pay your tv license, yet never watch a bbc channel, or paying for a driving license and using a car once a year. you pay a license fee, and that gets split across PRS registered musicians as and when. Im far happier to recieve some cash every few months, than nothing. ive also just paid XYZ to license a track that I have reworked and released. The original artist isnt going to get paid what I paid for the license, buts it better than a kick in the teeth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dbuckley Posted August 9, 2015 Share Posted August 9, 2015 A friend has a framed cheque on his wall, for £0.01 from PRS... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew Edwards Posted August 10, 2015 Share Posted August 10, 2015 My understanding is it only falls under the venue's background licence if they select the content. If the incoming company is in any way involved with what is played then they need to source their own licence. I believe this could be the reason why PPL changed their tune (pun intended). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.