[Seano]

AndyJones, on 04 April 2012 - 09:56 AM, said:

Beam trolley seems like the way ahead here. You can use the chain rather than any extra ropes to maneuver the trolley into place.

I was only being half serious when I suggested that. It might well be an option, but it is not without its risks and is definitely *not* a viable zero-experience option.

TomG, on 04 April 2012 - 10:43 AM, said:

We have a good working relationship with some of AEG's top brass so we should be able to see if they can put us in contact with some of there guy's, hadn't actually thought of that one.

You seemed unenthusiastic when I suggested engaging a 'proper' rigging company, Kerry's suggestion is really the same thing: "their guys" are PRG Maidstone (the rigging company formerly known as Summit Steel).

[TomG]

dosxuk, on 04 April 2012 - 12:41 PM, said:

Is this the space in question by any chance?



(from the Ravensbourne website home page)

That's the room yes. That photo you have found is another in a long line of photos on the rave website that have been used without permission, we are currently fighting there use of these photos.


Beam trollies are not viable, due to other fixtures on the beam such as the lights.
We are in discussions with two companies, already, and as we have relations with AEG already, I thought we'd make use of that contact as well.

All other rigging companies are welcome, I was just making use of our current connections first.

Thanks for all the other info people have suggested, it all helps.
Thanks again for all the advice, I have upto date photos of the space which I can upload later if there of use, when I'm not on my laptop.

[AndyJones]

Quote

I was only being half serious when I suggested that. It might well be an option, but it is not without its risks and is definitely *not* a viable zero-experience option.

Is any rigging a viable zero-experience option?

[Pete McCrea]

What's under the raised floor? Would it not be possible to lift tiles in the relevant positions for the truss ground support and build the ground support on the load bearing 'sub floor'. This might give you access to a well rated structural concrete floor.

[dbuckley]

I wondered about that too. In a computer room there's a whole universe of stuff under the deck, as well as a lot of moving air, but in office accommodation its usually pretty sparse, just trays for Cat5 and electrak for power to floorboxes. 95% empty. Tiles are usually 600 mm square. Another difference is the gap from floor to concrete, in a computer room it can be way deep (up to a metre!) but in office accommodation its usually just 150mm or so.

[brainwave-generator]

OK so I'm going to completely change my stance on this.

The FACTS are:
- you have a building with difficult and reduced floor loading.
- you have a building with difficult and uncertain roof loading.
- you are a small and young events company with no formal rigging experience or expertise.

this is the point where the best thing to do, as a production company, is to hand it over

Seanos suggestion of PRG is good, theyve. Great inventory and great Riggers. There are others though so do shop around, there is no harm in getting multiple quotes. London features a pretty enviable collection of top class Riggers. Your AEG suggestion is odd though... They're a promoter, not a rigging company. They know as much about rigging as unusual know about booking bands. Ring a rigging comany if you need rigging help! (p-orgy do a lot for AEG anyhow).

But ultimately if you broke the floor, broke the roof, or hurt somebody; that'd ruin your company and not personally do you any favours either. I know you're a new and enthusiastic company and you want to prove your worth and your 'take it in your stride' capabilities but equally the best project manager realises when he's out of his depth and needs to call in someone else. You still PM it, but somebody else takes the weight on thei shoulders so to speak. I know the forum can come across a bit 'holier than thou' at times but the days of cowboy rigging companies are between gone and numbered, and the reason for that is that everyone has really begun to realise what a serious affair it all is. I mean, rigging is really quite different to the sound/light/video scene - those are industry specific skills, rigging and power are engineers skills and not something you should expect to do under the same banner without careful consideration and professional input. Yes PRG do have rigging under their predominantly-lighting roof, but how so? They acquired a top rigging company, they didn't just buy some motors and truss and start booking Riggers.

Often knowing when to say no is one of the most admirable skills a man can posses. Were all 'can do' people by heart, but sometimes the best 'can do' is 'can't do but know somebody who can'!!! Its the way forward.

[ramdram]

And you get the money moving. Pushing work out and around will hopefully help all of us and get you remembered and even more hopefully get you another job from their referral in turn.

There is probably no better epithet than "Old such and such...yeah, good bloke."

[Seano]

brainwave-generator, on 04 April 2012 - 09:41 PM, said:

Seanos suggestion of PRG is good

More Kerry's suggestion than mine really, I just pointed out that they're the suppliers of the O2's outsourced rigging expertise.

Quote

I know the forum can come across a bit 'holier than thou' at times

No, its individual people who do that.

Quote

Yes PRG do have rigging under their predominantly-lighting roof, but how so? They acquired a top rigging company, they didn't just buy some motors and truss and start booking Riggers.

Er... no. Your history lesson is all a bit garbled. There's a germ of truth in there somewhere, but you've well and truly mangled it.

This post has been edited by Seano: 04 April 2012 - 11:06 PM

[brainwave-generator]

Seano said:

Er... no.  Your history lesson is all a bit garbled.  There's a germ of truth in there somewhere, but you've well and truly mangled it.<br />

<br /><br /><br /><br /><br />I wasn't referring to the Summit acquisition, which is a reasonably recent thing, so much as the Scenic acquisition nearly 30 years ago which was where (I'm told) PRGs rigging activities really went big scale, where previously PRGs rigging only went as far as suspending their lighting hires from the roof (although yes, be fair, that probably does run along the lines of buying truss and motors and hiring Riggers).

But I hope that's clarified what I meant. Rigging companies are, in most cases, rigging companies; and detailed nd specialist rigging designs are not something which every light and sound production company Is expected to be able to do. There is no shame in passing it on.

This post has been edited by brainwave-generator: 04 April 2012 - 11:13 PM

[matt_beal]

TomG, on 04 April 2012 - 03:09 PM, said:

Beam trollies are not viable, due to other fixtures on the beam such as the lights.

Which begs the really obvious question of... How does the venue service their lights?

Sorry, had to ask!

[TomG]

matt_beal, on 04 April 2012 - 11:24 PM, said:

TomG, on 04 April 2012 - 03:09 PM, said:

Beam trollies are not viable, due to other fixtures on the beam such as the lights.

Which begs the really obvious question of... How does the venue service their lights?

Sorry, had to ask!

Their lights are motorised. They come down on 4 wires each, and are controlled by a 3 way rocker switch. So no access to the Roof is required to change a bulb.

Brainwave and seano, we are now in contact with other companies, thanks for all your support and advise, we will let you know how it progresses, soon.

As I have stated before safety is our number 1 concern, so the cost of getting others in is worth it as we know it's going to be safe and fully legal and to specification.

Regards,
Tom.

[trussmonkey]

Tom

I used to be a project manager at Summit/PRG (O2 arena venue riggers). Speak to Chris Walker or Jay Call in the Maidstone office. They will help you out. Tell them Simon Frost said to contact them.

TM

[Giles Favell]

Back to basics..... Assuming the room and it's hanging points are intended to be used in this way, it is incumbent on the design team - Consultants, Architects and Contractors, jointly and severally, to consider the safe means of access to these points under the CDM regulations.
In this case, there should be all the answers you need in the Operations & Maintenance Manual, which was supplied with the building - assuming it is comparatively recent (15 years or so?).
If not, then either the building and these points were not designed to be used like this - which raises bigger questions..... Or the design team have left some fundamental work undone, in which case it would not be improper for someone in authority to go back to those parties ask ask them for a method statement for safe access to complete their O&M.
Either way, the starting point should be the O&M, which should shed light on the floor loadings, the beam loadings, and should give instructions on safe access methods.

[TomG]

trussmonkey, on 05 April 2012 - 01:18 PM, said:

Tom

I used to be a project manager at Summit/PRG (O2 arena venue riggers). Speak to Chris Walker or Jay Call in the Maidstone office. They will help you out. Tell them Simon Frost said to contact them.

TM

I shall get one of the team to give them a call. Thanks for the contacts.

Giles Favell, on 05 April 2012 - 02:30 PM, said:

Back to basics..... Assuming the room and it's hanging points are intended to be used in this way, it is incumbent on the design team - Consultants, Architects and Contractors, jointly and severally, to consider the safe means of access to these points under the CDM regulations.
In this case, there should be all the answers you need in the Operations & Maintenance Manual, which was supplied with the building - assuming it is comparatively recent (15 years or so?).
If not, then either the building and these points were not designed to be used like this - which raises bigger questions..... Or the design team have left some fundamental work undone, in which case it would not be improper for someone in authority to go back to those parties ask ask them for a method statement for safe access to complete their O&M.
Either way, the starting point should be the O&M, which should shed light on the floor loadings, the beam loadings, and should give instructions on safe access methods.

This information should be easily accessible through the right people as the building is about 2 years old. If it is not then we will be asking the questions why and what can be done about it, thanks for the advice.


E2A: We have a current copy of the floor loadings with the computer flooring in place, this is where we got the 450Kg/SqM from, we requested the floor loading last september, before then the facilities management didn't have them and had to request them from the building contractors. This leads me to wonder if they have the rest of the documentation you stated above.

This post has been edited by TomG: 05 April 2012 - 03:58 PM

[matt_beal]

TomG, on 05 April 2012 - 08:01 AM, said:

Their lights are motorised. They come down on 4 wires each, and are controlled by a 3 way rocker switch. So no access to the Roof is required to change a bulb.

I'm probably being dumb and admittedly know very little about the specifics of LOLER, but wouldn't they still need to access the roof for inspection purposes of the motors, wires and other accessories?

Sorry, I know I'm not being particularly helpful, I just can't believe there's not already an access plan...

Matt