[Rbhealthandsafety]

Hi All,
Could anyone offe any advice on what type of health and safety training for backstage people have recieved? Ie do colleges offer this as part of the standard courses or do you tend to have this once at work?

[Simon Lewis]

Hi, Richard,

Welcome to the Blue Room. In the course that I run, we cover event health and safety quite comprehensively. This includes toolbox talks, lectures, assignments, practical observation and real world events. It also covers related subjects such as the law of negligence and tort, noise monitoring for the Control of Noise at Work regulations and Portable Appliance Testing.

I presume you are looking to drum up some business?

Simon

This post has been edited by Simon Lewis: 09 July 2012 - 06:28 PM

[paulears]

Simon's course is how the better places do it during people's formal education in the specialist courses, but most venues provide it in-house because the particular (and somewhat odd) needs of our industry make generic courses rarely that useful. I did one once and virtually every question couldn't be answered, apart from in unhelpful terms. The usual things were questions about what outsiders would call manual handling - and stage people call work! Somebody I remember asking how to rig a MAC 500 and there was a quizzical look. He explained it was a moving light and had to be hung on a front of circle bar, from an A-frame step ladder. The trainer told him ladders were not able to be used for work like this and he had to hire in a specialist device - like what? came next, to which the answer was just laughable. Even unloading the truck was badly done.

I suspect if you could offer appropriate training, then many places would find it easier to take, than do themselves - but - only if it was the right kind of training.

[indyld]

Assuming that the OP is looking at market possibilities, I would say that it varies but that it'll happen at some point in the education or work cycle. Yes, companies are laying on HASAW training packages, service providers and freelancers are going through things like the SPA training etc. but increasingly it is happening before that.

While many educational and industry training courses may have historically treated H&S as a need to know thing in order to safely study, many courses have it embedded not only in the working environment, but also in the course content and assessment. This is certainly the case on the course I teach with and, with the addition of a new Technical Manager with a very strong H&S management CV (and a desire to get involved with teaching), is going to increase.

It seems to me that employers are rightly expecting graduates in our game to arrive in industry with a good grounding in various aspects of safety, not just practical applications, but the laws, COSHH, RIDDOR et al and theories such risk analysis management and analysis. So we build it into the course, which isn't hard because the level of safety awareness needs to be high in students anyway as they are learning in an inherently more risky environment than theologians. Not only is good safety practiced, but it's assessed too. Win - Win.

Maybe in the future, a certain level of industry training or subject relevant degree will be a flag to employers that they are taking on someone already versed in the H&S realm for their role as employee.

Edit to add:// Paul mentions venue specific "safety orientation" which is usually carried out in-house by experienced team members. At college/uni level we are also talking about broad brush safety topics, responsibilities and procedure including producing and using RA, MS n all that.

( I also dispute the "special case" argument that theatre persists in, but that's a whole other thread. Just because people continue to carry a MAC500 up an A-frame to rig it on the front of the circle doesn't make it right. Or, a special case ;-) )

This post has been edited by indyld: 09 July 2012 - 06:55 PM

[Rbhealthandsafety]

Hi Simon and all.

Cant believe how quickly you have all replied.

Thought I should make you all aware of my interest as I must look like a sales post. I am already working in the industry looking after the complete health and safety for a number of theatres in the west end and extremely busy, so not really looking for business. In managing the health and safety for producers and theatre owners I am interested to see what training people come to us with and the level at which it is delivered to, as part of my job is to identify an gaps and fill them once someone is employed. So hearing what your saying is music to my ears, it is great to see the level and detail to which it is covered. Do any of you deliver this training to the technical courses at drama college?


Richard

 Simon Lewis, on 09 July 2012 - 06:25 PM, said:

Hi, Richard,

Welcome to the Blue Room. In the course that I run, we cover event health and safety quite comprehensively. This includes toolbox talks, lectures, assignments, practical observation and real world events. It also covers related subjects such as the law of negligence and tort, noise monitoring for the Control of Noise at Work regulations and Portable Appliance Testing.

I presume you are looking to drum up some business?

Simon

[bigclive]

A good reference might be the CSCS test used in the construction industry. The complete list of questions and answers used to be available on the 'net, but having just had a look it's obvious that the training vultures have moved in on this lucrative racket. You can get the CSCS test booklet on ebay, and it might be worth a look through to form your own in-house version.

It's all common sense though. It covers basic electrical safety, fire extinguisher use and identification and rudimentary ladder use with some of the dumbest and most patronising multiple choice questions I've ever seen.

Q. How many people can work on a ladder at once.

A. Two, one at the top and one at the bottom.
B. Only one.
C. One per rung.
D. As many as can be accommodated on the ladder.

Or how about:-

Q. Your mate gets an electric shock and doesn't feel well. Do you:-

A. Send him home for the day.
B. Tell him to pull himself together.
C. Seek medical assistance.
D. Give him a nice hot cup of tea.

No seriously. These are actual questions in this "test".

[Simon Lewis]

Hi, Richard,

Quote

Do any of you deliver this training to the technical courses at drama college?

Not drama college... I run a University based, IET accredited, BSc Honours degree in Sound, Light and Live Event Technology. I'd hope that we offer something more challenging and comprehensive than the CSCS tests that Clive mentions! However, people seem to love these schemes so they have a lot of "currency" right now.

Simon

[kerry davies]

Simon and Rob are at two of the more industry related places and from experience many are a lot less thorough or comprehensive about H&S training. There is no comparable equivalent to either CSCS or the SPA Event Production Safety Passport (which I used to be involved with).

There was at least one Passport tutor who specialised in theatre as the basic information could be delivered with specific emphasis dependent on the roles of those taking part. Stage Electrics and many others run courses; http://www.psa.org.u...rts_get_one.asp
Questions were multiple choice and not as odd as CSCS but fairly simple with a pass mark of 80%.

Theatre could do with some form of recognised training though actually getting agreement across the board has been less than successful with varying organisations offering varying courses.

If you wish more background on the SPA passports then feel free to PM me.

[Rbhealthandsafety]

I like your thinking. We deliver an IOSH managing safely in theatre and production to the staff and it seems to go down so much better than the standard courses.

Simon Lewis said:

1341866783[/url]' post='445857']
Hi, Richard,

Quote

Do any of you deliver this training to the technical courses at drama college?

Not drama college... I run a University based, IET accredited, BSc Honours degree in Sound, Light and Live Event Technology. I'd hope that we offer something more challenging and comprehensive than the CSCS tests that Clive mentions! However, people seem to love these schemes so they have a lot of "currency" right now.

Simon

[brainwave-generator]

 paulears, on 09 July 2012 - 06:38 PM, said:

Somebody I remember asking how to rig a MAC 500 and there was a quizzical look. He explained it was a moving light and had to be hung on a front of circle bar, from an A-frame step ladder. The trainer told him ladders were not able to be used for work like this and he had to hire in a specialist device - like what? came next, to which the answer was just laughable. Even unloading the truck was badly done.

Sorry but an attitude of 'that's how we do it in theatre' is not a valid attitude to justify poor health and safety practice. I would thoroughly agree with this guy that hanging a Mac500 on a truss on your own using a ladder is not safe. When using ladders you should have 3 points of contact at all times. Carrying a Mac500 - in both hands - means at time you will have only one. A trip or mis-balance on the ladder would leave you with no hands with which to prevent yourself falling.

Theatre-specific Health and Safety is all well and good, but the purpose of it is not to permit things which outside the world of theatre would be considered to be dangerous.

The answers to the above are moving bar, podium steps, scaffold tower, MEWP. Not saying 'it's theatre, so it's OK'.

[Shez]

 brainwave-generator, on 10 July 2012 - 11:43 PM, said:

The answers to the above are moving bar,

Not many theatre circle fronts have moving bars on them.

Quote

podium steps,

Not easy over fixed stall seating.

Quote

scaffold tower,

Not exactly practicable over fixed stall seating, particularly if curved.

Quote

MEWP

Completely impractical over fixed stalls.

The way I've always rigged on circle fronts has been either over the edge of the circle or haul it up on a couple of lines from the ground.

[J Pearce]

But shez, why shouldn't we have circle front bars on winches, with a couple of removable seating rows below for easy rigging?
Why do awkward things that put us at risk if we can avoid it?

This is one thing I really like about the new RSC theatre. It is designed to be both safe and easy to use. A happy crew work better and quicker!

[paulears]

Can you imagine listed buildings installing winches in view? I'd agree that you can't carry a heavy fixture up a ladder, but the practice of hauling one up from above on rope still requires somebody to be on the ladder to complete the hang. I'm not sure about others but I have no problem with three points of contact - and having both hands free. I have two feet and a torso, with a deformable stomach that means I can effectively 'lay' on the ladder, and have both hands free to manoeuvre the clamps up and over the bar, with the people above taking it's weight. One hand only available when up a ladder means many tasks cannot be carried out, and two are needed. The stability of having your body flat against the ladder prevents knees taking any strain, and 'unlocking',and it improves safety by bringing your centre of gravity forwards. The seating below prevents the ladder bottom kicking out, and I personally feel quite safe working this way - and in huge numbers of venues there is no possibility of getting in anything other than a ladder, and HSE are quite clear that ladders are fine,if there is no better solution available. Can you climb a ladder with something in your hand? It depends if you can do it safely. A coil of cable over the shoulder? A lightweight Fresnel with an arm through the yoke? A heavy mover? This one makes no sense. Firstly, you don't feel safe - even if you slide your other hand up the ladder so you maintain grip with your hand.Each step removes one of your weight bearing supports, which unbalance you. Guiding the mover up that's being lifted from above works for me. In my summer venue, if we need to swap a mover on the front truss, we'll drop it in on it's winch, but if we're swapping a profile or PAR can, then it will be the big A-Frame ladder, and they go up and down by hand.

[indyld]

 J Pearce, on 12 July 2012 - 11:45 PM, said:

This is one thing I really like about the new RSC theatre. It is designed to be both safe and easy to use. A happy crew work better and quicker!

I often use the RST as an example when discussing safety policy with those in other theatres. The gist of an example of this is that, having assessed the risks, the RSC lighting department decide to that they have no excuse for working at height so they design their little trapeze things and rolling stuff etc. then they design a thing (the Lightlock) to get around the problem that they have come up against. If you talk to the guys are the RSC they are quite clear: the risk assessment says we have no option but to make every reasonable effort to mitigate the risks to our workers. This is also true in other disciplines in the theatre.

However I would say it has very little to do with a happy crew working better, and everything to do with the legislation.

 paulears, on 13 July 2012 - 07:37 AM, said:

Can you imagine listed buildings installing winches in view? I'd agree that you can't carry a heavy fixture up a ladder, but the practice of hauling one up from above on rope still requires somebody to be on the ladder to complete the hang. I'm not sure about others but I have no problem with three points of contact - and having both hands free. I have two feet and a torso, with a deformable stomach that means I can effectively 'lay' on the ladder, and have both hands free to manoeuvre the clamps up and over the bar, with the people above taking it's weight. One hand only available when up a ladder means many tasks cannot be carried out, and two are needed. The stability of having your body flat against the ladder prevents knees taking any strain, and 'unlocking',and it improves safety by bringing your centre of gravity forwards. The seating below prevents the ladder bottom kicking out, and I personally feel quite safe working this way - and in huge numbers of venues there is no possibility of getting in anything other than a ladder, and HSE are quite clear that ladders are fine,if there is no better solution available. Can you climb a ladder with something in your hand? It depends if you can do it safely. A coil of cable over the shoulder? A lightweight Fresnel with an arm through the yoke? A heavy mover? This one makes no sense. Firstly, you don't feel safe - even if you slide your other hand up the ladder so you maintain grip with your hand.Each step removes one of your weight bearing supports, which unbalance you. Guiding the mover up that's being lifted from above works for me. In my summer venue, if we need to swap a mover on the front truss, we'll drop it in on it's winch, but if we're swapping a profile or PAR can, then it will be the big A-Frame ladder, and they go up and down by hand.

OK, so that's your rationale for why it's OK for the continuation of such practices: You have no problem with x or y.

But so what if listed buildings can't install winches? Perhaps people shouldn't be hanging S4 Revos off the Circle front then, having grunted them into place between the fixed seating, carrying them awkwardly up and down stairs and hoiking them into position using a combination of ropes and leaning over the rail. There may be "nothing wrong with ladders" but there is plenty wrong with the these and other theatre practices given proper assessment and perhaps one day I will stop hearing excuses as to why we all have knackered backs.

This will be when people stop trying to put monster shows into unsuitable historic buildings under ridiculous scheduling constraints and stop bleating that it has to be this way. And don't tell me there is no money in theatre for us to all be safer until Cameron Mackintosh is driving around a beaten up Polo like one of the Proddys.

Edit to add:// In this particular thread, as many other discussions on HASAW as it applies to theatre, it always appears to be akin to Navvies fighting for their rights to dig trenches with a shovel even while everyone else is using a digger.

This post has been edited by indyld: 14 July 2012 - 04:24 PM

[kitlane]

 Simon Lewis, on 09 July 2012 - 06:25 PM, said:

Hi, Richard,

Welcome to the Blue Room. In the course that I run, we cover event health and safety quite comprehensively. This includes toolbox talks, lectures, assignments, practical observation and real world events. It also covers related subjects such as the law of negligence and tort, noise monitoring for the Control of Noise at Work regulations and Portable Appliance Testing.

I presume you are looking to drum up some business?

Simon

Simon, be nice to Richard. He supplied those yummy muffins on his stand at ABTT.