[photographic08]

We are looking at school to buy one (probably two) hanging microphones for general pickup, mainly singing. They will mainly be used for musical theatre, but also in a little for concerts and recordings. The two we're looking at are the Samson CM12C and the Audio Technica PRO45. Does anyone have any good/bad comments about either of them, recommendations for one or the other, or even a better suggestion for a microphone?

Thanks.

[Ynot]

I suggest that you do a search of the BR for the terms 'hanging mic' and see what turns up.

The general opinion of many experienced members (and my own) is that hanging mics are next to useless for the majority of PA use, just like most shotgun/rifle attempts to pick up the chorusses of am dram groups.
The more popular (and successful) pickup mics used tend to be boundary mics of the plate mic type - eg the Crown PCC160 or similar.

And don't forget that the MOST important aspect of any chorus pickup (or even principals in may cases) is to get the beggars to actually project when singing!

[ramdram]

If you have the budget you might hire in the different mics mentioned above, do the BR search, read any other gen you can find via google and do the experiment thing.

You will appreciate you can't get a definitive answer form BR 'cos we have no idea exactly how your "space" works in the "sonic dept" so to speak.

Any research won't be wasted and any experiments might, rpt might be a joint music lesson and physics lesson if you can get you music and science depts involved, after all you would have to have the choir, say, doing their bit anyway.

Sounds (groan) a worthwhile practical lesson for all combined. It may turn out that the best solution is the nippers just have to learn to sing up a bit...then you could do the experiments again for best mics for recordings...

[photographic08]

Thanks for the replies, I'll have a look around the blue room a see what I can find.

Ramdram, I do appreciate I wont get a definitive answer on here, and anyway we use several local venues and as we dont have our own. But your suggestion of hiring them and seeing whats best seems like a great idea, so I'm going to look into it.

And of course just getting them to sing louder would be the simple answer, but I somehow doubt its going to happen.

Thanks again.

This post has been edited by photographic08: 02 October 2011 - 02:33 PM

[Ynot]

 photographic08, on 02 October 2011 - 02:31 PM, said:

And of course just getting them to sing louder would be the simple answer, but I somehow doubt its going to happen.

With the utmost respect intended, that is completely the wrong attitude to take.
As long as there are those tasked with managing sound who accept that the cast are quiet so we HAVE to do what we can to make them louder, rather than impress upon directors, MDs etc the need for THEM to get said cast to speak or sing up, there will always be this inherent problem!

Too many 'noise boys' do just that and try to make a silk purse from the proverbial sow's ear!

[photographic08]

Yea you are right, I just get a little down hearted at times with the volume of certain peoples singing. It wasnt the right attitude.

[Bobbsy]

I think Ynot was being a bit unfair.

Yes, by all means encourage the cast, the director, the MD and Uncle Tom Cobley to sing louder. If the mics can't hear the cast the sound op can't do anything. However, you can only go so far with this and eventually you have to work with what you're given. If I refused to do sound for any show where the cast didn't project I wouldn't work much--and I include some high profile professional names in that. Yelling at a bunch of ten year olds doesn't get you very far.

Anyway, on the microphone question, as many have said, hanging mics won't do the job for you. You can search the BR for a lot of discussions on this.

You'll be far better off investing in some boundary mics to sit on the lip of the stage. In an ideal world you'd buy some of THESE. However, from the mics you're asking about I suspect the budget won't stretch. Several people have previously recommended some CPC boundary mics that are much cheaper. I don't have any personal experience with them but hopefully somebody will be along with a link to the CPC models you could consider.

[Lamplighter]

 Bobbsy, on 02 October 2011 - 06:00 PM, said:

I don't have any personal experience with them but hopefully somebody will be along with a link to the CPC models you could consider.

CPC boundary works for me. The mic is vey robust, though a spare cable is essential.
Brian

This post has been edited by Lamplighter: 02 October 2011 - 06:33 PM

[photographic08]

Thanks for the link Bobbsy, I'll look into them, my only concern is them getting kicked, If they cant see big chrome floor pars (dont even go there, it didnt end well), I dont want to think about mics on the floor. But they could well be the answer.

[Ynot]

 Bobbsy, on 02 October 2011 - 06:00 PM, said:

I think Ynot was being a bit unfair.

Well, no - I don't believe that I was.

My point is the fact that in so many instances - and we've seen LOADS of them in questions here - it seems that many people's first and only solution to any situation where chorus/secondary performers can't be heard is to throw mics at the stage. I'm a firm believer, where I have any influence at all (and it's certainly feasible that in am dram there CAN be influence exerted), of making sure that the cast are all aware of the fact that no amount of microphone placement will be a silver bullet, so the prime responsibility is with them to make sure that before they even get to the stage they CAN project as best they can.

You don't need to yell at the ten year old kids (or indeed 40 year old adults) to sing up if they've been taught properly in the first place.
The last rehearsals are not really the place to make a difference - it MUST be drilled into them from the off.

I've worked with a gereat many am dram companies over the past 30 years and can safely say that where this principle has been followed, there's been little problem picking up from boundaries at the front.

A quick addendum to the use of boundary plate mics - stick them on top of a piece of foam, or other insulated material - that will cut down on the foot tapping noise that is inevitable. Also make sure you ring the mics out properly to get the best reproduction whilst filtering out (again) more of that foot noise, yet retain a decent bandwidth for vocal pickup. And if possible - to avoid problems if the ARE kicked, maybe consider gaffering them to the deck .

Oh - and make sure you place them the right way round! More than once I've turned round ours when one of the lesser experienced noise crew has faced them towards the punters rather than performers!!

[Lamplighter]

Quote

my only concern is them getting kicked,

That shouldn't be a problem, mine have been danced on many times. Ynot's advice to use a mat is sensible, I use an A4 sized piece of bright yellow foam about 2.5 mm thick. Gaffer the pad to the stage and then gaffer the sides of the mic to the pad.
Brian

[Shez]

I use a gaffer triangle to stick mine down (there may be a more official name for them than that - it's a triangle made of gaffer that has the sticky side of the tape facing outwards on both sides. Dead useful for discreetly attaching things). It holds them in place and isolates them nicely from the floor. Note that if you raise them up above the floor, they don't work as well as they don't get the benefit of being sat on a boundary.
The PCC160s and their Bartlett siblings are made of pretty substantial steel and will withstand quite a battering. The plug in the side is the only weak point. And your speakers of course if you're too slow on the faders...

[Ynot]

 Shez, on 02 October 2011 - 09:59 PM, said:

. Note that if you raise them up above the floor, they don't work as well as they don't get the benefit of being sat on a boundary.

That is of course very true, but I see the benefits of the mechanical isolation outweigh the small reduction of efficiency by using the foam pads.
(I think ours have some automotive felt baffle material semi-permanently stuck to them at the mo).

[bruce]

I use mouse mats. The foam gives some isolation, but they're thin enough to not affect the pickup pattern too much.

[Bobbsy]

+1 for using mouse mats under boundary microphones. They seem to offer enough isolation to minimise stage noise but not so thick as to upset the boundary effect.