[edbramall88]

Hi I am Sound Engineer for a travelling theatre company. We are currently in Sicily and we have a new show we are putting together for the summer season. The Director/Writer has come up with the idea of what he wants and it is my job to make it happen. Here is my idea of what to do:


To have 5 live video feeds being manipulated on the fly and projected to 5 corresponding projectors in real time. Each projector only receiving a feed from their corresponding camera. With 1-3 projectors with live feeds projecting at one time. The cameras and projectors both need to be situated up to 30 meters away from the tech booth and laptops.



And the practical set up I have in mind from my research:
-Use 5 wireless camera feeds to transmit their feeds to 2 MacbookPros.
-The feeds will be manipulated with Isadora Software.
-The feeds will then be outputted via two Matrox Digital Triple Head2go, each attached to one of the MacbookPros
- I want to keep the signal digital if possible to avoid the time lapse of conversion from analog to digital. However I believe I will need to use VGA to connect the projectors to the laptop as DVI cable can not be more than 15 meters long.


I am considering whether to use wireless cctv cameras or wireless webcams to sent the live feeds. The issues being that it is tricky finding non analogue cctv cameras. And with the webcams they seem to depend on the internet to transmit the signal and the internet is not available due to the environment of the show. I wonder if there is a way to use a router in a localhost type manner with wireless webcams? Rather than depending on the internet.

[smalljoshua]

What sort of manipulations are you planning on doing? Any form of processing will generate delay.

CCTV/Wireless style cameras will not be of any quality and will appear as you'd expect a CCTV camera to look.

Have you considered hiring the cameras and processing to give you a better quality system?

Josh

[sleepytom]

Wireless is extremely unreliable in venues which typically have a lot of EMI generated by lighting dimmers, audience mobile phones, bar fridges and all the other things that typically go to make up your standard gig environment.

If possible use cables to get the signals to and from your video control position. (by if possible, I mean do it regardless of the annoyance of cable running, wireless will not work and simply is not an option unless this is very high budget. if this is very high budget then hire a video company to do the video and stick to doing the sound!)

wireless CCTV typically has several seconds of latency - it is not designed at all for realtime low latency transmission.

How are you hoping to capture the feeds into the macbooks pros? this will likely introduce at least 1/4 of a second of latency if not significantly more. Again analog to digital isn't the issue really (SDI capture isn't significantly faster than composite video capture)

I'd be happy to do some design / consultancy to tell you how his could be made to work. You have a huge amount to learn if you've not done much video before (which is sounds like you haven't from the things you have said here) It IS possible, but quite tricky to pul of something like this with the controllability and reliability that you need.

[AHYoung]

Run cables to the cameras, either composite video or hdsdi if you have the budget and forget wireless as the kit that works you cant afford, and the kit you can afford just wont work well enough often enough to be any use. Same goes for IP cameras and / or most capture devices as the latency will make things utterly unusable, and you will be up against it when proccessing the video anyways. People get overexited about resolution, but with live video is all about latency.

Id also be slightly circumspect as to whether your macbooks have the grunt to run video at 3072/768, it would be more sensible to use a single higher powered server and run 2 outputs via THTGs with output number 6 being your control screen. Personally id use Catalyst on a mac pro fitted with 2 active silicon lfg4 capture cards as the latency is minimal, but its a steep learning curve.

Toms advise is sound, pay someone who knows what they are doing to sort it out, its a steep learning curve and if you pay someone , you get a guarenteed result and it will cost much less in the long run {unless you pay the wrong person...}

[GRisdale]

Speaking from nightmare experience, be careful of putting lots of faith in Isadora. To be fair I haven't touched it in a few years, but I was involved in a big project with lots of live video that the director decided would all be handled by Isadora. It was not a fun week. Lots of latency, and a few moments when the software essentially hung and I had to cross my fingers that it would come back (mid show).

If you do plan to use it make sure you test it thoroughly and well in advance.

Gareth.

[Ian H]

As one who professes to do this for a living....

I would follow the advice of AH Young ..."Personally id use Catalyst on a mac pro fitted with 2 active silicon lfg4 capture cards as the latency is minimal, but its a steep learning curve".

Use a reputable vendor like SNP or Pixels Plus to provide kit - either as a hire or a sale -- that way you get a system that is built to your requirements by somebody who will support you when you need it and will provide training when you require it....AND YOU WILL REQUIRE BOTH......

Cameras on a Wire - Projectors on either 5 wire RGBHV or VGA cable

Ian H

[edbramall88]

Hi guys,

all of this is useful and I starting to get what you are saying.


The company does not have the money to hire equipment or people. I will have someone running for me who has done VJing and video before but they are not here at the moment to help me with this.

The resolution thing is not a problem for us.

I was hoping to use a usb receiver from the camera into a usb hub then play with the images in a software was only using isadora as it is one I have heard of but if you guys know of something that can handle multiple signal inputs and outputs would be much appreciated.

All 5 live feeds will not be going to the one computer as I get the impression that is going to cause even more latency. I was going to split them between 2 computers.

I was given the brief of: 5 performers all being filmed individually live, then editing the image live, then projecting the image onto individual screens each corresponding to their specific camera.

We dont plan to use HD as we are aware the hardware wont manage everything we want to do in a small space of time it does not have the best equipment in the world, a simple but effective solution would be preferred. I know that this and being simple dont seem to be things that go hand in hand (especially in my mind)

ALL I want it to do is work it does not have to be perfect!!

[sleepytom]

You can't use multiple USB video devices via a hub like that there is not enough bandwidth.

If your suggesting Isadora because it is the only thing you've heard of then your really lacking the ability to do this.

You need to hire someone who has done this before, or it will go badly wrong (as in you'll spend all of the budget and more, and will not do a single show without obvious technical errors mid show, if you even get to the point of doing a show)

I've done this kind of live camera / multiscreen manipulation a lot, for many years. There are many different ways it can be done, but none of them are really simple.

Any of the better media server systems will be able to do this, but you need a skilled technician to set them up. You also need to be more specific about the kind of effects you need to add to the feeds, it's possible you could do it without any computers depending on the effects required.

A runner who has done a bit of VJing will be useful, you can get them to get the highly experienced media sever technician his coffee whilst he stays up late programming the complex systems needed for this show!
(seriously if they don't have the budget to get advice on how to do this from someone who has done it before then they don't have the budget to do it. Tell the Director this rather than go off on an expensive wild goose chase which results in you looking foolish when you fail to deliver what they want)

[henny]

When you say editing live what do you mean ?? Cutting between cameras, fading to black or somthing more like adding effects ???

[AHYoung]

you cant do complex and expensive cheap, without it looking intermitant and shoddy, if you cant afford to hire someone to do this , you are either prepared to do several months of learning without pay , and it will be months, or are so inexperienced that you simply dont understand that it wont be a simple job. Personally id expect that you need to spend around 10k on the hardware, and allow a weeks wages for someone experienced to set it all up and programme the show. once thats done pretty much anyone can run the cues, if you try and do it for less you will spend more on wasted purchases and more importantly wasted time.

If you need to do it for less, scale back and feed the cameras to the via a matrix switchand forget the effects, or via a anaolgue vision mixer with the fx you need and have one screen, it will be managable and you wont be tearing your hair out at whatever combination of hardware / software is failing to work together today....