[Moderato Maestoso]

Hi folks.

**MUSO ALERT** - I'm 'one of those', not a noise boy. Please be gentle!

I'm putting together integrated click tracks / SFX for a new show. There is quite a lot of very low end stuff in the mix. Is there anything to be gained (no pun intended) by separating out the really low stuff onto a separate stem (so creating a 2.1 mix rather than 2.0), so it can be played by another sub if required (so as not to overload the main mix)? I know this is pretty standard in the film world, but don't know whether it really applies to theatre or not....

Many thanks,

Martin

[dbuckley]

In pro audio its now almost common to have whats called "aux fed subs", the idea being that the sound engineer can choose which channels get fed to the subs. So vocals for instance never make it to the subs as all that is present below 75Hz on a vocal mic is handling noise and wind. Only a very small number of channels get fed to the subs. The main rig has a presentable frequency response anyway without the subs, and thus guitars etc can have their entire frequency needs accomodated within the main rig.

So having a sub track is not at all a bad idea. Even better is a track that is intended to be played full range including the subs, whereas th main tracks are intended for full range without sub assistance.

In the world of film, the LFE track is not typically used for music, only for effects. The design goal is that the LCR channels are full audio bandwidth, and thus you can put music including LF content quite happily into the LCR channels and it will come out in the auditorium. LCR speakers behind a cinema screen typically have one or a pair of of 15 inch drivers for each of the LCR speakers. Having said that, most modern cinema processors allow the LCR channels to be crossed over to the subwoofer feed. Note the terminology there, LFE, which is an audio track "on" the movie, and subwoofer feed, which is an amplifier and speaker thing. The two are different, and the processor and its setup gets to decide what goes where.

[Moderato Maestoso]

dbuckley, on 10 April 2012 - 12:57 AM, said:

In pro audio its now almost common to have whats called "aux fed subs", the idea being that the sound engineer can choose which channels get fed to the subs. So vocals for instance never make it to the subs as all that is present below 75Hz on a vocal mic is handling noise and wind. Only a very small number of channels get fed to the subs. The main rig has a presentable frequency response anyway without the subs, and thus guitars etc can have their entire frequency needs accomodated within the main rig.

So having a sub track is not at all a bad idea. Even better is a track that is intended to be played full range including the subs, whereas th main tracks are intended for full range without sub assistance.

In the world of film, the LFE track is not typically used for music, only for effects. The design goal is that the LCR channels are full audio bandwidth, and thus you can put music including LF content quite happily into the LCR channels and it will come out in the auditorium. LCR speakers behind a cinema screen typically have one or a pair of of 15 inch drivers for each of the LCR speakers. Having said that, most modern cinema processors allow the LCR channels to be crossed over to the subwoofer feed. Note the terminology there, LFE, which is an audio track "on" the movie, and subwoofer feed, which is an amplifier and speaker thing. The two are different, and the processor and its setup gets to decide what goes where.

Thanks David!

From the brief conversation I had with the tech team a couple of weeks ago, the plan is to have 2 channels (L and R) "full range", while there will be another physical sub for the 'bigger' (scarier / grander / whatever) moments, and a couple of strange effects - like an earthquake which morphs into a musical note etc.

dbuckley, on 10 April 2012 - 12:57 AM, said:

In the world of film, the LFE track is not typically used for music, only for effects.

Aside from the Zimmer brigade

Because of the very tightly integrated nature of the effects and music on this show (there's even some discussion at the moment about whether there should be separate stems of playback for the track and atmospheric FX!), there's inevitably going to be some crossover (again... no pun intended) between the music and the effects. For example, something we're doing for a few sequences in the show is to add a subharmonic synth behind the double basses (on the track) to beef up the bass.

Cheers!

Martin

[chelgrian]

dbuckley, on 10 April 2012 - 12:57 AM, said:

So having a sub track is not at all a bad idea. Even better is a track that is intended to be played full range including the subs, whereas the main tracks are intended for full range without sub assistance.

Seconded it's always better to have more discrete channels it can be then be mixed back into the L+R in the playback software or in the sound desk if it turns out you don't have the extra discrete subs to feed. Conversely if the effected are embedded into the main stereo track then you won't be able to easily extract them again.

[durian]

I work in 'performing arts' @ university running the a/v for our theatre.

we were gifted with a typical stereo pair over the stage and a matching stereo pair over the audience (bose 402)

then they put in a 5:1 dvd sound system with bose amps and bose pannaray subs and more 402s

to fill the vast emptiness of the space I have a group output on the desk routed to the sub and put anything but vocals thro it. but only just enough to make it sound full,

not enough to rattle the rig tho....

anything else goes through the stereo and I moved the L+R of the 5:1 down to the side bars for a bit of stage fill on another group.

so I would say it is worth at least hearing a similar setup in your space before you decide how to proceed

This post has been edited by durian: 11 April 2012 - 09:16 PM

[Bobbsy]

Moderato Maestoso, on 10 April 2012 - 01:33 AM, said:

Thanks David!

From the brief conversation I had with the tech team a couple of weeks ago, the plan is to have 2 channels (L and R) "full range", while there will be another physical sub for the 'bigger' (scarier / grander / whatever) moments, and a couple of strange effects - like an earthquake which morphs into a musical note etc.


Because of the very tightly integrated nature of the effects and music on this show (there's even some discussion at the moment about whether there should be separate stems of playback for the track and atmospheric FX!), there's inevitably going to be some crossover (again... no pun intended) between the music and the effects. For example, something we're doing for a few sequences in the show is to add a subharmonic synth behind the double basses (on the track) to beef up the bass.

Cheers!

Martin

This sort of integration is becoming very common (at least in things I've worked on) and all goes to add to the show. So long as the method is carefully planned in advance, it can all work really well.

(My favourite to date was a show that started with a 1 minute 46 second slow fade of the house lights timed with a similar length build of a single musical chord (auditorium roof turning into a planetarium effect of real constellations) with the musical note morphing to a very loud rocket launch (including big subs to shake the audience)....which then morphed to a live actor waking from a nightmare (including effects on his voice) which fade out to normal speech as he wakes up. The one was fun--and it was fun to watch the audience gradually realise what was happening!)