[stillgoingstrong]

Hi,

Just a couple of quick questions...
The company I work for is beginning to venture into needing 7.5t to get our kit to and from jobs.
One of our drivers can already drive them without needing to do the test, I'm not so lucky.

We've been told by the local truck hire company that we also need an 'O' license.

Upon a quick google I discovered there are 3 types of license.
Restricted, Standard National and Standard International.

My questions...

I understand the conditions as 'Hire and Reward' for the standard, but if I'm only charging mileage (or expense of hiring in the vehicle) and as such not making a reward out of the driving itself, can I get away with the restricted? Or do they take into account the overall contract, hence my reward is the profit of the job, or the fact they are hiring me to do their job, making me need the standard national?

My other question is they suggested I could 'borrow' a license from another company if I asked around. If I can do that, surely the rental firm would have to have an O license purely for the fact they make a living on the 'Hire' bit of the 'Hire and Reward'. And surely they must be available to buy, as companies that have them to borrow from must have purchased them in the first place. Anyone know where I can enquire as to getting one (do you need 1 per vehicle) and if by actually owning the license it makes you more liable/more paperwork?

Thanks in advance

Phil

This post has been edited by stillgoingstrong: 26 December 2007 - 12:41 PM

[Simon Lewis]

stillgoingstrong, on 26 Dec 2007, 12:37 PM, said:

...I understand the conditions as 'Hire and Reward' for the standard, but if I'm only charging mileage (or expense of hiring in the vehicle) and as such not making a reward out of the driving itself, can I get away with the restricted? Or do they take into account the overall contract, hence my reward is the profit of the job, or the fact they are hiring me to do their job, making me need the standard national?

The restricted licence allows you to carry your own goods, but not to charge for transport. As far as I understand it, as long as you are charging just for the equipment hire, you could get away with a restricted licence - I.e. "you cannot charge for deliveries or for the use of the vehicle".
The standard licence allows you carry your own goods, and other's goods for hire or reward.

Quote

My other question is they suggested I could 'borrow' a license from another company if I asked around. If I can do that, surely the rental firm would have to have an O license purely for the fact they make a living on the 'Hire' bit of the 'Hire and Reward'. And surely they must be available to buy, as companies that have them to borrow from must have purchased them in the first place. Anyone know where I can enquire as to getting one (do you need 1 per vehicle) and if by actually owning the license it makes you more liable/more paperwork?

The "borrowing" bit is to do with the conditions of the O licence. It is quite common to apply for more capacity than is needed. Say you had one 7.5t truck, but you applied to run two. That allows you to run your own plus a hire vehicle if that was needed. If a firm isn't using its extra"capacity" you could possibly "borrow" this, but you are then driving under their operator's licence, and any misdemeanors will be attributed to you and their transport manager.
The hire firm will have arrangements to let them drive their own vehicles, but the law states that any one using a vehicle over 3.5t in connection with business needs an O licence. Therefore, they will probably not have sufficient capacity to allow you to use their licence - nor would they want your liability!

It is possible (if you are hiring from the same company and you discuss this with them) to apply for an O licence using the hire company as your operating site. This satisfies the "suitable maintenance facilities" requirement, but may not help with the "keeping overnight" part. You could discuss this with your local transport office, if you are just hiring in vehicles. If you are buying, then you need a site, evidence of financial security, evidence of ability to maintain the vehicles and you must advertise your intentions before applying...

Look at the application form and its guidance notes. There are several other hurdles to jump over before you can get your O licence. On the other hand, if you are pulled over in any vehicle that requires an O licence (and this includes a 3.5t van with a trailer!) not having the licence is a black mark towards you obtaining one! There's more information here...

Hope this helps...

Simon

This post has been edited by Simon Lewis: 26 December 2007 - 02:31 PM

[gareth]

Your best bet is to make a call to VOSA at your regional traffic office - they're mostly very helpful, and will be able to point you in the right direction.

[Billy]

Hi Phil

I have 4 x 7.5t vehicles and operate in film and television as a freelance rigger and I have a Standard Licence.

In the eyes of the law you will be the user of the vehicle, and using it for commercial purposes, therefore responsible obtaining and maintaining an operator licence. I am assuming your trying to earn some extra money by offering to supply yourself and vehicle (as I do) Take my advice there are no loopholes is this legislation (I explored it thoroughly).YOU NEED AN O LICENCE.

If you apply for and obtain a Restricted Licence, everything in the back of that vehicle must be Owned By or Hired By you. Therefore if your asked by another person or contractor to carry something as a favour or for cash to the next location or venue, you will be in breach of your Licence and can be substantually fined and your O Licence revoked.

I opted for a Standard Licence. Although all equipments in the back are owned by me, sometimes the production co. asks me to carry pieces of set or equipment that are not Owned or Hired by me but are connected with my installation. Therefore in the eyes of the O License I am moving goods and equipment commercially for others. To obtain this licence you require to sit an exam and obtain a CPC qualification.

There is one piece of advice you have received which is Very Worrying. Borrowing Licences, the Transport Commissioner treats this as a Cardinal Sin and will come down on you and the O Licence holder with the full weight of the law. Please believe me in this IT world , he will find out.
Knowlege of this subject is scarce and full of myths. The Area Traffic Commissioners office have become very user friendly and approachable and my local office spared me a very informative hour pointing me in the right direction and dispelling the myths. You can also discuss the Tacho legislation with them as well.

Paper work has to be maintained by law, regular inspections must be maintained, weights must be monitored, but money can be made.
Stay Legal and speak to the right people.


Seasons Greetings
Billy


.

[adamharman]

Simon Lewis, on 26 Dec 2007, 2:27 PM, said:

(and this includes a 3.5t van with a trailer!)

I had a slight panic when I read that! I occasionally tow a trailer behind my LDV 400 tipper (I'm a builder, the lampy thing is a fairly extensive hobby).

However the VOSA document you linked to says this...

NB A small trailer of not more than 1020kg unladen weight can be ignored for the
purposes of adding up total gross weights or unladen weights for drawbar outfits.

Which would cover most trailers likely to be towed by a 3.5t van.

[Grahame]

I believe registered charities are exempt from the need for an O Licence. I've hired 7.5 tonne vehicles for small theatre companies that were registered charities, and didn't need an O licence. Or so the hire company told me at any rate....!

[stillgoingstrong]

Hi, thanks for all your advice so far,

One question regarding a comment Billy made,

I read on another forum that to have an O license you need to prove that you have the facility to maintain and securely store the vehicle. Do you have to buy an O license (and presumably show you can do the prior) even if you're only going to hire in? as surely it's the hire companies responsibility to make sure the vehicle is roadworthy before you receive it.
I have a feeling you're all going to say yes, but wanted to make sure there wasn't any alternatives, especially as it was my local Ford Hire depo that suggested borrowing one!

I ask this as most of the replies on the poll are people who only hire in 7.5t trucks.

Once again thanks so far.

Phil

This post has been edited by stillgoingstrong: 27 December 2007 - 07:26 PM

[ianl]

whatever the hire companies responsabilaties, it is still the drivers (and their employers) responsibility to ensure the vehicle is safe to use every time they use it

I (well the company I work for) have restricted O licence for 2 vehicles, we don't own any trucks and always hire them. As far as VOSA were concerned this makes very little difference to what they require of me.

as there is a good chance that we will be keeping a hire vehicle on our premises overnight (ie pick up the night before for a early load, or unload after gig and return the next day or just needing it for 2 days in a row) it was nesesary to register our premises as a truck park (advertise in local paper your intention then apply ) it needs to be secure, safe and off road, unlikely to cause a nuisance . you can either claim you will always return it to the hire company or arrange with a company that already has a registered truck park to have space for your hire truck in their truck park should you need it (ie the secure area you register has to be a truck park but not necesarily your truck park)

in my aplication for the licence I included letters from the hire company explaining their servicing procedures and copies of their checksheets as well as proof of company bank acounts and proof that the companies directors were trustworthy etc

pretty much imediatly I had 2 people from vosa come to interview me to see if we wer following the rules .

the first was interested in our procedures for doing daily checks on the hire vehicles (and more checks if we should keep the hire vehicle for longer) and the system for drivers reporting faults and ensuring they were followed up. all this had to be written documentation. luckily we already have this in place for our own vehicles so it was easy to just add "hire1" and "hire2" to the system.

the second person was interested in drivers hours and tachographs. note that the "company" holding the O licence need to keep records of the tach logs and drivers hours for all vehicles in their use. bear in mind that a lot of hire 7.5 ton trucks are starting to have digital tachos in them so all your drivers will need to apply for driver cards and you should have a company card and software to access and store the tacho data (you could probably get away with print outs for low usage)

pesonally unless you are planning on making a lot more money through hiring yourself as a trucking company I would seriously suggest you give all the info to the company you work for, get them to buy the O licence and comply with all the regulations, you can still charge them extra for you to drive the truck

as some others have said, phone VOSA for a chat they are very helpfull

This post has been edited by ianl: 28 December 2007 - 02:50 PM

[johnhuson]

I don't really get involved in our operators licence but from what I know it can be hard work! One thing that always seems funny to me is needing to advertise in the local paper for any changes or applications. Can't really see the value of that myself.

[Andrew C]

johnhuson, on 28 Dec 2007, 8:36 PM, said:

Can't really see the value of that myself.

You might if your neighbour applied to use his drive to operate a 7.5T truck out of... :down:

[Pete McCrea]

The guys I used to work with reapplied for their O Licence when they moved premises from the top of a hill ex military hospital to a warehouse near residential areas. They did the advertising in the local paper thing, and thought nothing else of it. Until the O Licence didn't go through. It turned out that a resident about 3 roads away, didn't like the 38t trucks using his road to access the builders merchants and other businesses near the warehouse so used this application to voice his opinions. And it worked, stopping the O licence application.

So with a bit of Public Relations (they invited him over to the unit, showed him what they do, and how they don't use 38 tonners (much.... atleast not on the O licence) and how it would kill the company), he eventually backed down and withdrew his objection. So be warned, it can happen!

[johnhuson]

I appreciate the 'purpose' of advertising in the local paper but I don't really see any 'value' in it, after all the local paper isn't guaranteed to be distributed to all your neighbours. Surely a notice being posted to your neighbours (a la planning applications) would be more appropriate.

[paulears]

John - ever heard of the London Gazette? It was a very common way of fulfilling the requirement of telling everyone. Nobody I know has ever subscribed, but local libraries do.

If you have something like a will that nobody has come forward to claim or maybe looking for a lost person to inherit something, or have a requirement to publish the names of competition winners etc, then you place an ad, and that's it.

I've a radio licence from years ago that has a number of rules and regulations - all of these can be varied by simply sticking a notice in this paper.

I dodn't think it matters if it gets read - and after all, perhaps that's the idea. Planning and operators licences have provision for objections to be taken into account, so publishing in the local paper means anybody who can be bothered to read the classifieds may see them. If they don't, and the objection period expires - then tough. Doing it to everyone in the area would be expensive, and could actually hinder the application, not help. They do, as far as I'm aware contact people in the immediate vacinity, but not further afield. In the case mentioned here, somebody not even local complained, so being selective about notification can be a good thing.

[pscandrett]

This operators' licences thing is something that's on my list of things to investigate and I was in the middle of doing so in December when Christmas came along; I'm pleased it's come up here, really.

My colleagues have said that we don't need to worry about an operator's licence as we're not a business as such; I've never been keen on just having that as an answer and having investigated a bit I'm still not so sure.

If anything it would be the 'restricted' one I'd have thought; we occasionally need to hire 7.5t trucks for the purposes of doing gigs but - and this is where the line is blurred slightly, I think, and is probably the crucial point - we are a charity and doing gigs and events is what we do as part of our charitable aims - not to make money. We don't make a profit out of this - we are funded by donations and trusts. (On occasion that we do make a profit, which is extremely rare, from doing events it gets ploughed back into the central pot again). So... do we need a licence if we're not selling any goods or services?

The point about storage of trucks is an interesting one, too; when we hire vehicles we store them in our warehouse as it's secure. I'm also intrigued by the 3.5t+trailer point; we occasionally tow a caravan behind our Renault Master van...

I've just read the guidelines (again) but I'm still not clear as they keep referring to "carry goods (or burden) connected with any trade or business" - and the key question, as I see it, is are we a trade or business?! I don't know - we're a charity and company limited by guarantee... not a trade or business. Hmm.

Has anyone any advice please?

Edit: I note that showmen's goods vehicles and trailers are exempt. Does anyone know what that encompasses?

This post has been edited by pscandrett: 29 December 2007 - 09:30 PM

[Pete McCrea]

pscandrett, on 29 Dec 2007, 9:27 PM, said:

I note that showmen's goods vehicles and trailers are exempt. Does anyone know what that encompasses?

Those rigs that consist of a tractor unit with 60kVa Genset on the back, towing 40 tonnes of ride that looks like it's going to break the back of the trailer chassis, which then has a huge caravan attached, which has the spinning tea cups attached to the back of it, and topped off with a pay booth. And they still manage to get the whole rig up steep hills and reverse park it with the accuracy of a racing driver. And they never seem to get stuck in mud.....

As for what actually designates it as a showmans vehicle I don't know. There must be some sort of registration process, or it could possibly be linked to the company type?

With regard to the publishing issue, I think as others have mentioned it can be usefull if the notice can be published in a low circulation paper to minimise the numbers of people reading it. If the notice CSS had published had gone into the local free paper, I doubt they'd have had any issues as 99% of the population use them for lining the Cat's litter tray.