[alex_r]

Hi there,
Can someone point me out from where to start?
I've never done before something like that, but I presume it can be done by some kind of outdoor direction light with focus point and which could light up to ~8km to reach the clouds.

I'd be thankful if you could advice me some models that I could use to prepare an order to our lighting hire companies. Gobo I can handle my self

Basically it's going to be for one festival, and the idea is when there will get dark I need to project vertically the festival logotype onto the clouds. In Ireland with the clouds should be no problems
The reason why I mentioned about the vertical projection is that the light itself should come up onto the sky from the ground, so some spotlights as we're using for concerts are not good for such jobs, quite big to dig in the ground. I imagine it should be something like city beam or alike

Thank you for help in advance

Regards
Alex

This post has been edited by alex_r: 16 April 2012 - 05:19 AM

[GridGirl]

I'd think at that distance you'd need something like a searchlight, and I'm not sure how well that would work with a gobo. I've seen the Griven SkyRose used for cloud projection, but I don't know if you can put a gobo in them - I have a feeling that they just project a bunch of beams of light. They do make a 2500w version so it could be worth investigating. According to Wikipedia, the Bat Signal (which I presume is similar to what you want to achieve!!) is a specially modified Kliegl searchlight so that could be a road worth travelling down. I suspect it's possibly not something your local hire company will have in stock though....

[pritch]

I can't comment on the technical details, but before getting too involved (and certainly before hiring anything), check with whoever's responsible for aviation in Ireland. The CAA like to be kept informed about what people are shining into the sky, and I imagine the Irish authorities would be the same. In particular, if you're close to an airport (or even if you're not that close, but on the extended centreline of one) then they might tell you it can't be done.

[paulears]

Wasn't there a try out of this when the first Batman Movie came out (Not the Adam West movie, which was far the best in my opinion). They tried to project the Batsignal for the premier and it failed miserably. This is only memory, because it's a long time ago, but it worked on buildings, but on clouds, it only was visible from the point it was projected - once you moved to one side, it just broke up and vanished because clouds aren't solid and constant density. I think they abandoned it in the end.

[cedd]

In the UK you need to have a good read at CAP736;

http://www.caa.co.uk...s/33/CAP736.PDF
(posted more for the reference of anybody over here who finds this post and is looking for similar info)

I suspect the rules will be pretty similar over your way. Get in touch with the IAA or ring the local airport and ask to speak to the Senior Air Traffic Control Officer. They'll probably bounce you back to the IAA though.
http://www.iaa.ie/

They'll want a contact number so they can shut you down if there's an issue.

Just because there's not an airport nearby doesn't necessarily mean you're not under an airway. Lots of traffic goes transatlantic via Ireland's airspace.

[Shez]

Whilst doing an overnight focus at a festival last year, we discovered that the clusters of Sharpies in the DS corners of the stage could do a remarkably good job of projecting on to the clouds. The gobos didn't come out particularly big so it would be no good with a complex logo but it might be an avenue worth looking at if money is tight.

[timsabre]

To the best of my knowledge, no xenon-type searchlights exist which can focus a gobo. Paul is also correct that the cloud underside is not a flat surface.

For a simple logo such as the batman symbol it might be possible to array a large number of searchlights on the ground and make up the logo from projected "dots". Never heard of this being done though and it would be very large budget.

This post has been edited by timsabre: 16 April 2012 - 11:58 AM

[Nicktaylor]

Did I misread or have you suggested cloud base of 8km ie 8000m or about 25000 plus feet? That is very high, I dont think the big WW2 searchlights reached that far! Much more sensible to assume cloud base will be say a 1000 feet. Also that will help getting aviation permission. Imagine the height of a firework exploding at a normal large display it wnt be a lot higher than a thousand feet, much more than that and the effectw ill be wasted because of lighting inverse square laws etc IMO

[greenalien]

What you are proposing is very difficult to achieve. The original Batman projected logo was simulated, not real. All that projecting onto cloud will do is scatter the light, not reflect much of it back cleanly. Better to get something like a big weather balloon or an advertising blimp and project onto that.

[dbuckley]

Can be done, have a look at this page in the Waaaaayback machine.

Unfortunately, the mob who did this locally to me no longer appear to do so.

[alex_r]

 GridGirl, on 16 April 2012 - 06:27 AM, said:

I'd think at that distance you'd need something like a searchlight, a....

Thank you GridGirl. You're right that's exatcly what I need The searchlight, didn't know the exact name of this devices, I mixed up them with city beams

 pritch, on 16 April 2012 - 06:31 AM, said:

... check with whoever's responsible for aviation in Ireland. The CAA like to be kept informed about what people are shining into the sky ...

 cedd, on 16 April 2012 - 11:10 AM, said:

Get in touch with the IAA or ring the local airport and ask to speak to the Senior Air Traffic Control Officer. They'll probably bounce you back to the IAA though.
http://www.iaa.ie/
They'll want a contact number so they can shut you down if there's an issue.

Thanks for the tip and links guys, frankly I wasn't sure it is so important!

 Shez, on 16 April 2012 - 11:56 AM, said:

Whilst doing an overnight focus at a festival last year, we discovered that the clusters of Sharpies in the DS corners of the stage could do a remarkably good job of projecting on to the clouds. The gobos didn't come out particularly big so it would be no good with a complex logo but it might be an avenue worth looking at if money is tight.

Shez, thanks for the reply. Could you please elaborate on that a bit more? I don't follow you what you mean by the cluster of Sharpies and the DS corners. Cheers

 timsabre, on 16 April 2012 - 11:57 AM, said:

a large number of searchlights on the ground and make up the logo from projected "dots".

That's quite massive though ) But thanks for the suggeston

 Nicktaylor, on 16 April 2012 - 12:22 PM, said:

Did I misread or have you suggested cloud base of 8km ie 8000m or about 25000 plus feet? That is very high, I assume cloud base will be say a 1000 feet......

Thanks Nick for point me out, you were right about the high. According to wikipedia article most rain clouds(what usually happens in Ireland) are in low family "C" clouds, and the distance is up to 6,500 ft (2,000 m)
http://en.wikipedia...._.28Family_C.29

 greenalien, on 16 April 2012 - 01:10 PM, said:

What you are proposing is very difficult to achieve. The original Batman projected logo was simulated, not real. All that projecting onto cloud will do is scatter the light, not reflect much of it back cleanly. Better to get something like a big weather balloon or an advertising blimp and project onto that.

Thank you for the suggestion, Greenalien. I've heard about such solutions, but it's quite not fit in our art installation idea, and I am not sure a blimp will fit in our budget either
Ah I didn't mentioned it is a part of an art installation, did I?

 dbuckley, on 17 April 2012 - 01:26 AM, said:

Can be done, have a look at this page in the Waaaaayback machine.

Thank you dbuckly. I've checked given website, and it looks good and what I imagined btw. That what I was thinging about at first just to apply a pattern on top of a searchlight not in front of the focus point as with gobo happens afaik.
Althought the image you presented isn't the projection onto clouds, it looks like someone photoshoped it )

Once again thank you for all your input, guys! I apreaciated that much and I've learned a lot

This post has been edited by alex_r: 17 April 2012 - 06:04 AM

[Brian]

What does the logo look like? Is using a laser system out of the question?

[alex_r]

 Brian, on 17 April 2012 - 06:26 AM, said:

What does the logo look like? Is using a laser system out of the question?

Thanks for the reply Brian,
The logo is made from couple overlayered elipses, so I believe it isn't difficult for any laser to recreate.
But the thing is I am afraid that the laser style won't fit in our art installation image.

Ok briefly there is going to be some arty-crafty 4 bodies(some kind of alien-beings by 3 meters high ) gathered around a sort of sanctuary with raised up hands. the hands will make kind of a circle in the middle, where I want to let the light beam through it and from the ground with a small haze machine to create the Tyndall effect.
And all this light supposed to make a vision of something going up from the earth. Well and on top of the beam I was thinking to add a kind of wow factor. And that is what about this topic

[cedd]

With that in mind, I'd almost suggest that it's best NOT hitting the clouds.
If you're going to be able to see the beam of light at ground level because of the haze, then stick a rotating breakup gobo into the beam so it looks like there's some movement within it.

As a punter looking at this installation, my eye would be drawn upwards to the projected image on the cloud and at that point, my imagination's going to lose out. After all I can see the beam "end" on the cloud. I can also see what image it's projecting.
Far more mysterious to have an eerie light, containing movement, that is shining upwards but doesn't have a natural "end" (on the clouds). It just fades away into the sky. I think my imagination would be more likely to think that it's continuing on into space with that setup.

[alistermorton]

 alex_r, on 17 April 2012 - 06:02 AM, said:

I don't follow you what you mean by the cluster of Sharpies and the DS corners. Cheers

Sharpies are clay paky lanterns - see here - they throw an intense, narrow beam.

DS == downstage, or towards the front of the stage if you're facing the audience.

This post has been edited by alistermorton: 17 April 2012 - 08:23 AM