Jump to content

Ladders And Working At Height Certificates


paulfurze

Recommended Posts

All,

 

Total apologies if this is in the wrong place or its already been asked or worse still is a silly question but...

I've had a search but cant find the specifics of what I'm looking for.

 

Our bands lighting stand is nothing more than a couple of wind up stands and some truss, Its maximum height is 6m.

Now, on the odd occasion, we do put up some lights say on bars already installed at a venue, these are often a little higher.

In both cases above we always use a step ladder to install or adjust lights.

 

My question is to do with insurance and legalities, in the UK

The internet is full of 'Working at Height' courses for £20 with an exam.

However, something makes me feel that these may not cut it with the insurance company should something happen and someone get hurt.

 

Thus....

1) Whats the legal requirements in the UK. I'm already aware of what it says on the HSE site but I'm taking a stab that there's more to it.

2) Where should we be going to get 'Trained' and certification for the correct use of ladders in the UK. (I'm based in Aberdeen so ideally up here would be better)

3) Whats the stuff I need to be looking at so I'm not missing something here. Anyone have a good link to a site or such.

 

Again apologies if this is all very basic to some of the people on this forum but I don't anyone getting hurt and want to make sure our insurance is valid in the event of an incident.

We do risk assessments for loading in/out, stage setup, and electrical safety but the Working at Height bit we've missed and I'd like to cover that aspect.

 

Thanks in advance for anything you can add here.

Paul.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

work sent me on a ladder safety course.

I won't say that it was a waste of time but it is mainly common sense.

 

the main thing was to inspect the ladder every week & record the fact, and to inspect it before use.

we looked at wood/metal and fibreglass ladders, plus the old 'live overhead voltage" stuff

 

I don't remember getting a bit of paper - although I also did a PASMA tower course and got a card for it as well

 

I would ask my insurance co what they need

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The HSE site spells it out, and there isn't really much too it that they don't say.

 

The courses are just a way for you to learn a bit of common sense, and have a piece of paper that you can show to people who think that bits of paper (with no substance to them) prove you are safe. These people rarely accept anything other than a bit of paper, which is rather sad. Legally, the UK follow the general rule that for insurance, for liability and security any work process must be carried out by people who are competent (and that is Google-able in terms of definition). If there is an accident and you have one of those life limiting or life changing results, then if you can find somebody to blame, you will. The venue owner would seek to establish it is not them responsible for money reasons. One of the tests is simply to check on your competency. Were you safe to go up that ladder and attach some lights to a bar? You would possibly try to mitigate the incident by establishing their ladder was the problem, and they would counter it by showing off their ladder register where it's condition has been recorded. It's a stupid time wasting tit for tat system.

 

On many courses nobody fails - the certificates are preprinted with your name before you arrive. The trainer could be an ex-fireman, very skilled in ladder worker an ex-windowcleaner or sky dish installer recently sacked for taking chances with safety. The certificates have no national standard and are really certificates of attendance on a paid course. Some individuals and companies place great emphasis on these. For your occasional ladder climbing with your band, you don't need it, although this won't keep those caretaker types at bay. For those, you need a piece of paper. How you get it is pretty obvious.

 

However - on a personal point. How good are you really up a ladder or pair of typical wobbly steps, possibly on a stage that is on a rake? Can you function safely at the top of the ladder? Can you attach the light with one hand of the ladder? How about ion you need two hands? The ladder courses usually state 3 points of contact at all times - feet and one hand, but to work at the top of the ladder, two hands are needed. Many people simply arrange themselves so they have both feet and in my case, a well padded stomach that fix me pretty securely to the ladder while both hands are free. Leaning out sideways is dangerous, but backwards and forwards can also be trouble. Most ladder training teaches you it's better to go up an extra rung rather than stretch. This is all common sense stuff, once you know it!

 

One very important thing is that people are sometimes afraid of heights and do not know it until too late. I was once up to my neck in a complex get-in, and we had a new fella on the job. Well qualified, had a degree in sound design from a sensible university. Without checking (or even having a proper chat) I sent one of my team and him up to the flys with the intention of lowering down some flight cases stored there. To get up there there is a vertical ladder, with hoops. He got ¾ up and froze solid. Couldn't go up or down. We had to go up behind him and physically move his feet to the next rung down, one at a time while he just had white knuckles. He didn't know he was scared of heights, he'd just assumed he could do it.

 

If you really want to improve your safety, take a course if you can afford it. The piece of paper might come in handy, but if only a few things sink in, you will be safer, and hopefully competent.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

The ladder courses usually state 3 points of contact at all times - feet and one hand, but to work at the top of the ladder, two hands are needed. Many people simply arrange themselves so they have both feet and in my case, a well padded stomach that fix me pretty securely to the ladder while both hands are free.

 

The HSE working at height myths section actually states that 3 points doesn't have to be two feet and a hand, two feet and knees or body are acceptable if you need both hands to complete your task.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Our bands lighting stand is nothing more than a couple of wind up stands and some truss, Its maximum height is 6m.

Now, on the odd occasion, we do put up some lights say on bars already installed at a venue, these are often a little higher.

In both cases above we always use a step ladder to install or adjust lights.

 

6m is fairly high, you would need a decent set of ladders (12 or 14 rung Zarges) which are standard in our industry but this would be scary on a rickety old set or some smaller steps.

 

If I was on a job working at those heights on ladders I would definitely make sure the people going up were competent and able to do so and the access equipment was up to the job.

 

For example I would be reluctant to ask local crew who I didn't know to work in this situation, or any fatigued lampys who had been working for 10+ hrs.

 

Just saying this, as the kind of ladder work you are talking about would require a bit of experience and good practise to do safely. Certainly not a 'Health and safety gone mad - anyone could do it with their eyes shut' kind of job.

 

 

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

This might be one of those situations where "It's much easier to apologise later than it is to ask permission in the first place."

 

As soon as you go looking to see if you need permission or a certificate to do something, some freeloader will cash in and offer it for cash.

 

I'm suddenly getting memories of that patronising ECS test question "How many people are allowed on a ladder at once." with equally patronising answers.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Is everyone forgetting that in venues with lighting bars they have their own access equipment and their own systems of work that the OP and his crew must adhere to? We may be complicating things by forgetting that the aim is to get some lanterns up in the air and when we visit Rome we do as Romans do.

 

The legal requirements are on the excellent HSE websites. The safe methods are also on HSE websites and Manufacturer's Instructions (MI's) for the ladders, steps, towers, trestles that the venue has available. If the people involved are comfortable working at height then training could just consist of reading the guidance and practising at safe heights until competent.

 

If you want an opinion then for my money you are halfway home just by asking these questions and being aware and interested in safe working practices.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

It's worth thinking about other aspects that will influence safety too.

 

At a recent show I had a hard time persuading a DJ to turn his music down so that our crew could communicate with each other. We had one person up a ladder hanging lanterns onto a dead-hung bar, with another person passing them to him. The DJ wasn't testing his system, he just wanted some banging choons whilst he worked on other stuff.

 

Typically the most dangerous moments on ladders are when you have tired people, working under pressure, with noise and other activities going on round about them. Trying to do a focus off a ladder whilst a band soundcheck is never much fun, best avoided wherever possible.

 

My hunch is that, for the OP, scheduling the work in a way that it can be done safely is going to be at least as important as looking for ladder inspection tags.

 

 

 

I'm suddenly getting memories of that patronising ECS test question "How many people are allowed on a ladder at once." with equally patronising answers.

 

 

fd288fb2f87a178726dc37d47a9ad814.jpg

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

We have placed cookies on your device to help make this website better. You can adjust your cookie settings, otherwise we'll assume you're okay to continue.