[ScottishCol]

My question is this:

You work in a hotel/small theatre.

Event wants to hang from RSJ's

It's obviously OK (less than 300kg)

But no SWL available.

Do you allow? And Why? (Not) And where is the legislation that covers this?

NB: time/budget=it's on the day of the event and everyone's looking at you, babe!

[david.elsbury]

Surely this depends on your insurance? And if you are a competent person, then you are able to make that call...

Edit: I can't help but think you could have chosen a better title for your topic also...

This post has been edited by david.elsbury: 11 January 2012 - 07:38 AM

[Brian]

ScottishCol, on 11 January 2012 - 07:17 AM, said:

And where is the legislation that covers this?

The Health and Safety At Work Act.

A wonderfully simple piece of legislation that requires organisations and the self-employed to carry out their activities in a way that doesn't put their staff (section 2.1) or the public (sections 3.1 and 3.2) at harm.

What more do you need?

[ScottishCol]

david.elsbury, on 11 January 2012 - 07:37 AM, said:

Surely this depends on your insurance? And if you are a competent person, then you are able to make that call...

Edit: I can't help but think you could have chosen a better title for your topic also...

Whose insurance? tech/venue/incoming??
I like the title...

Brian, on 11 January 2012 - 08:02 AM, said:

ScottishCol, on 11 January 2012 - 07:17 AM, said:

And where is the legislation that covers this?

The Health and Safety At Work Act.

A wonderfully simple piece of legislation that requires organisations and the self-employed to carry out their activities in a way that doesn't put their staff (section 2.1) or the public (sections 3.1 and 3.2) at harm.

What more do you need?

I need facts and figures dammit!!!

Look, this is something that happens the length and breadth of the country. Every day.

"We need to hang this, have you got the swl"
"No but..."

"there's no time/budget for survey"

OK lets cancel the event... Happen often???

[david.elsbury]

I can't help but wonder what's going on here.
You seem to be getting very worked up over this issue...

Who ends up in front of the court if the hung equipment comes down and causes injury or death? What do they say? That there wasn't a SWL or the time to get a survey, so they went ahead and rigged it anyway? That would suggest the person is personally liable to me.

Considering that your profile says that you work for a hotel, what is the issue you're having with your employer?

David

[ScottishCol]

david.elsbury, on 11 January 2012 - 08:26 AM, said:

I can't help but wonder what's going on here.
You seem to be getting very worked up over this issue...

Who ends up in front of the court if the hung equipment comes down and causes injury or death? What do they say? That there wasn't a SWL or the time to get a survey, so they went ahead and rigged it anyway? That would suggest the person is personally liable to me.

Considering that your profile says that you work for a hotel, what is the issue you're having with your employer?

David

Hi Dave, I wouldn't say worked up, and no major issues with my employer, but I know this comes up everyday somewhere! "Can we hang here?" "Ummm..."

Without an SWL (which you KNOW is many tonnes), can YOU tell someone they cant hang, event is cancelled?

[Dj Dunc]

No you don't cancel the event, you find an alternative solution. Ok so no hanging points, so lets look at a ground support structure. Surely the incoming event has done a site survey, or has brought the kit to be flexible. If they haven't done the legwork of finding out the details of the venue, then its up to them to either a) change the rigging around or b) pay someone lots of cash to have a ground support structure or other alternative delivered on the day of the show.

[david.elsbury]

+1.

There's a difference between "just turning up" expecting to hang, and a pre-arranged production wanting to hang.

If the venue hasn't made the effort to find out what the client wants, and how feasible that is, and if the client hasn't made the venue aware of their requirements/requests, then neither party should be under the expectation that said equipment can definitely be hung.

David.

(not Dave )

[Brian]

ScottishCol, on 11 January 2012 - 08:22 AM, said:

I need facts and figures dammit!!!

OK.

If you could let me know...

1) The grade of steel the beam in question is made from
2) Its profile
3) Its dimensions
4) How is it supported
5) The existing imposed load and how that is distributed along the length
6) Any existing suspended loads and their locations
7) For the supports I'll need to know their construction
8) and their dimensions
9) and the materials used
10) and the details of what else they support
11) and the dimensions of the foundations
12) and their material
13) and the details of any other loads supported on them
14) and...

My point is that there are many variables, however a structural engineer will soon give you a 'safe' figure for any bit of steel structure.

ScottishCol, on 11 January 2012 - 08:22 AM, said:

..can YOU tell someone they cant hang, event is cancelled?

Of course you can.

[ScottishCol]

OK, we're not talking about a big touring show.... As the title suggests, small hotel... less than 300kg rig.

EVERYBODY knows that the RSJ's can take it, but there are no SWL's...

What do YOU tell 'em? Poll?

[Dj Dunc]

Any show coming in. I do it for conferences regularly, even small hotels. In the past I have been told that we can't hang from the roof as the structure has not been assessed by a competent person, and thus most likely wouldn't be covered on their insurance, as it would be deliberately causing avoidable damage to the building, because they hadn't taken reasonable steps to assess the suitability of the structure. In the eyes of the law (in this situation & as far as Ive been informed) a competent person is one that has had professional training on structural engineering. Sure you may think that the beam will hold it, but hang it in the wrong place, and it could cause something else to go belly up, and either way you're screwed as a bit of the ceiling is impaling you or someone else to the floor, or similar.

[ScottishCol]

Thanks Brian, that seems pretty comprehensive...

So from the point of view of your average small venue tech across the country....

"These guys must know what theyre doing?"


"If they think it's OK then it must be?"

This post has been edited by ScottishCol: 11 January 2012 - 09:15 AM

[mac.calder]

I completely disagree with the mentality of "These guys must know what they're doing? If they think it's OK then it must be?".

Can you say "You're not hanging that there!"

Well that depends on your relationship with the venue. In Australia, for example, the typical relationship is that a venue will have an inhouse supplier of AV (usually a large all rounder AV company that puts a small office in the venue with some dedicated techs) - when another company comes in (as I am assuming is happening here) a Technician on Duty from the inhouse company is employed to provide venue knowledge, ensure no damage is done to the venue and make sure they are being generally safe. I assume this is the capacity you are currently liasing in?

In that case, normally what you would do is flag to them that the beams are not rated, flag it to the venue management. The venue management then have to make the call - generally based on covering their backsides - and you enforce their ruling.

Are you competent to rate the beam? Obviously not. Are they? Probably not. In my book, that says no rigging from the beam.

Don't just assume that because it is a large thick steel RSJ that it is capable of holding tonnes. It all depends on how the building was built - an engineer might walk in an rate it at 100kg static load only or they may rate it for a 2,000kg dynamic load.

This post has been edited by mac.calder: 11 January 2012 - 10:11 AM

[ScottishCol]

Thanks Mac, and everyone who replied.

You summed up my situation pretty well, but I am in the position where I can say NO...

The point of this post was that I know there are many small venues in the UK where there aren't experienced techs, to even question what happens.
This worries me...

I have the strenght of character to tell my boss/events where to go but how many young techs do?

(I'm too old to be working for ###### venues but choose the security)



So.... from replies I've recieved....

EVERY small venue has SWL's or says no

and EVERY production company recieves SWL's before hanging...

How true is this?

[AndyJones]

ScottishCol, on 11 January 2012 - 10:47 AM, said:

So.... from replies I've recieved....

EVERY small venue has SWL's or says no

and EVERY production company recieves SWL's before hanging...

How true is this?

Fairly untrue. Lots of people every day hang from stuff without knowing the swl. I doubt anyone will admit to that on a public forum though...