[paulears]

On the 30th Jan, Mike here had a call from one of those persistent cold calling companies wanting us to buy printer cartridges, they called back several times and in the end he gave up and said they could send a sample if they really wanted to. A box turned up, and contained products that fitted none of our printers, so we just left the box in the store. Today an invoice arrives for £819 for the two toner cartridges!

I called to speak to them, but the receptionist had to get Shaun in customer relations to call me back. after ten minutes nothing, so I called back to be told off as it's only 9 minutes - they obviously log the calls meticulously. Two hours later they've still not called back, and I've rattled off an email stating I'm not going to pay for them, the goods are here unused and if they want them back, just arrange a courier.

Obviously a scam - nobody is going to pay eight hundred quid for a couple of toner cartridges - and unbranded ones at that.

I foresee a long battle ahead. Roll on county court. My last experience of that was pretty good, so I fancy the battle. A little internet research reveals they do this quite often.

I'm recording the calls I'm making to them - so here's the question. Do I actually HAVE to tell them the call is being recorded before they speak? I don't want to - wanting to keep this for playing to the judge!

[TheLX1]

Hello,

I did a quick Google and in short, according to OFCOM you don't have to tell them that you are recording their calls unless you want to make the recordings available to a third party, in which case you have to tell them.

More info here: http://www.callcentr...ing_Legislation


Hope you get this problem resolved

Tristan

[Wingwalker]

I'll second that - you do have to let them know otherwise if it came to court then they can say that they were unfairly treated by you by hiding something from them. It's like the old scenario of if you take a photograph of someone - who owns the picture? You because it's your camera, or them because its their face held in the memory?

However, it may be enough just to let them know that you are doing it because if they are dodgy then they won't want to be dragged through the legal system and may just give up.

[MarkPAman]

From Ofcom

Quote

There are several pieces of legislation governing the recording of phone calls. These include:

Regulation of Investigatory Powers Act 2000 (RIPA)
Telecommunications (Lawful Business Practice)(Interception of Communications) Regulations 2000 (LBP Regulations)
Data Protection Act 1998
Telecommunications (Data Protection and Privacy) Regulations 1999
Human Rights Act 1998

If you need help in this area you should seek legal advice. Due to the complexities of the laws involved, Ofcom is not in a position to offer guidance.

My bold

[kerry davies]

Her indoors tells all the bureaucrats she has dealt with over the years they have messed her around that she is recording the call in the presence of a witness.
Never seen a recorder and she is alone lots of the time but it seems to concentrate their minds wonderfully.

If you do actually record and wish to produce in evidence then it pays to say so. If you just wish to have a record for personal purposes then you do not have to tell them anything.

This post has been edited by kerry davies: 28 February 2012 - 06:26 PM

[karl]

Slightly off topic - but anybody know if this is covered by the Unsolicited Goods and Services Act? If they ring up first and badger somebody until they say 'alright send us a sample' does that make it solicited?

[paulears]

In this case, Mike simply agreed for a sample to get them off his back. I'll have to brazen it out - and to be honest I'd be quite happy to contest this in the county court - I'm more concerned with the ear bending we're both getting from my dear wife!

[Brian]

karl, on 28 February 2012 - 07:18 PM, said:

... anybody know if this is covered by the Unsolicited Goods and Services Act?

I don't and I don't have time to read it but in general many pieces of Law such as this don't cover business to business transactions.

[TomHoward]

It may also be business to business only, but at a consumer level you may also by covered by distance selling regulations, may be worth a look?

[rossmck]

paulears, on 28 February 2012 - 04:14 PM, said:

I'm recording the calls I'm making to them - so here's the question. Do I actually HAVE to tell them the call is being recorded before they speak? I don't want to - wanting to keep this for playing to the judge!

I record all calls made to companies, and all inbound calls from non-geo or withheld numbers.

My understanding, and I used to work for a large telecoms company that (amongst other things) handled recording for FSA-regulated institutions, is there is the requirement that both parties are aware they may be recorded if the intention is to disclose it to a third party. If you are recording for your own use, no such warning is required. Likewise if you call anyone and *they* say the call may be recorded then the requirement for them to be aware is fulfilled.

It is a bit of a grey area, and I am not a lawyer and this should not be considered legal advice, however I have used my recordings in several cases to prove what has been said and although the customer service people are a bit perturbed by it their supervisors always seem to accept it, and agree I have the right to record them.

The RIPA certainly does not prohibit it, and the LBP permits recording in the following circumstances;

• to provide evidence of a business transaction
• to ensure that a business complies with regulatory procedures
• to see that quality standards or targets are being met
• in the interests of national security
• to prevent or detect crime
• to investigate the unauthorised use of a telecom system
• to secure the effective operation of the telecom system.

Where the recording is for any of the above purposes there is no obligation to inform customers or callers, only your own employees.


It's also worth noting, if they do decide to try and take action against you, that at worst under RIPA it's a tort to record unlawfully - so anyone who believes they have suffered from unlawful recording would have to seek redress by taking a civi action against you - it's not a criminal act.

[musht]

paulears, on 28 February 2012 - 04:14 PM, said:

Do I actually HAVE to tell them the call is being recorded before they speak? I don't want to - wanting to keep this for playing to the judge!

Bit of human engineering , surely in a call centre they will be `recording and monitoring calls for the purposes of security and training` so ask them, if they say they aren`t recording , drop in that you are and move swiftly on to another bone of contention.

Script monkeys, trick is to get them to bit of their script that dosen`t have an answer...

In one case told them was recording the call for the purposes of humiliation and entertainment and that by continuing the call they were granting licence to publish the call...

Happy Hunting, will some of the calls be available on youtube for entertainment purposes :-)

[ramdram]

Firstly, you must see the Citizens' Advice/lawyer folk without delay.

You will learn about your and the third party's rights and obligations.

Or, simply tell your putative creditors you will see them in court. And make sure that they know you insist on a copy of their "bundle" with their "evidence".

I have had occasion to say this in the past in such scenarios as the inertia selling of CDs and insurance cover.

The "creditors" realise eventually, in "your" case that they would have to convince a very hard nosed DJ (District Judge) that anyone would actually order items such as the above for the best part of a grand...when a market comparison would demonstrate you could buy them for very much less.

In any event a DJ would insist on reading any contract between you and the third party. If the contract is in any way iffy or you appear to be surrendering your rights then it may be ruled as unenforceable sort of thing.

The argument the DJ uses in his summing up and Judgement is the "balance of probability" thing. (I have seen this on two occasions and it is very entertaining to see some total planks squirming as they learn that they are in fact about to be ordered to cough up. (Both cases of mis-selling as it happened.)

These vermin rely on the bully boy tactics. If you did receive any "legal" nonsense then simply say you will add it to the said "bundle" for disclosure in court.

Never enter into conversation on the telephone but continue the process in writing. Simply interrupt their spiel and say they MUST correspond in writing...for your legal advisor to peruse....and for the DJ to read in evidence, then hang up. Keep repeating this every time they call.

IF you do write to them make sure your letters are headed "Without Prejudice".

These tw@ts hate that. The ones I dealt with years ago could barely write "proper" English. You therefore get the opportunity to query every bit of nonsense they write.

This post has been edited by ramdram: 29 February 2012 - 12:24 AM

[alistermorton]

paulears, on 28 February 2012 - 04:14 PM, said:

On the 30th Jan, Mike here had a call from one of those persistent cold calling companies wanting us to buy printer cartridges, they called back several times and in the end he gave up and said they could send a sample if they really wanted to. A box turned up, and contained products that fitted none of our printers, so we just left the box in the store. Today an invoice arrives for £819 for the two toner cartridges!

I called to speak to them, but the receptionist had to get Shaun in customer relations to call me back. after ten minutes nothing, so I called back to be told off as it's only 9 minutes - they obviously log the calls meticulously. Two hours later they've still not called back, and I've rattled off an email stating I'm not going to pay for them, the goods are here unused and if they want them back, just arrange a courier.

Obviously a scam - nobody is going to pay eight hundred quid for a couple of toner cartridges - and unbranded ones at that.

I foresee a long battle ahead. Roll on county court. My last experience of that was pretty good, so I fancy the battle. A little internet research reveals they do this quite often.

I'm recording the calls I'm making to them - so here's the question. Do I actually HAVE to tell them the call is being recorded before they speak? I don't want to - wanting to keep this for playing to the judge!

Friend of mine supplied this link about Imperial and a simialr company calling themselvwes Millenium.

[paulears]

Well, conversations recorded, stuck to guns and a quite helpful chap called Sean agreed to a return, and I got a returns number, and the goods have gone off - so I'm going to call it a win - despite actually costing me £9 to send it back, but under the circumstances as soon as the recorded delivery shows up as delivered, I've got everything I need to cover myself, and that should be that.

They did try, like the link to pursuade me to keep them at a lower price, but I really don't have an HP laser so pointless. I was polite but firm and stuck to my guns.

I'll report back if it goes sour.

[Junior8]

I have not tried this myself but a contact assures me that you can have a bit of fun by sending these types a recorded delivery letter demanding answers to the queries in your previous letter in order that you can progress the matter. The trick is that you haven't sent a previous letter. Agree though - 'see you in court', in writing, is the only way to deal with this sort of thing.