Small speakers for a church

[mnorman]

Hi,

 

I am currently trying to upgrade my local church's sound system. My first target is to sort the speakers - they have currently got two flat panel speakers in the church, which are absolutely terrible.

 

They don’t want anything too big, as it can take away from the ‘beauty of the church’. I have been looking at finding some fairly small speakers, preferably passive, which while being fairly discrete, also produce a high enough quality to fill a traditional church.

 

When we buy them, they will be mounted to the pillars, so we will also need to get mounts that will work with them as well.

 

Any ideas?

[timsabre]

Is this just for speech reinforcement? Or music too?

Also is this a Church of England church, if so there are some procedures to get through before you start changing stuff...

[GaryNattrass]

Always liked the JBL Control One for general purpose use: https://www.stagedepot.co.uk/audio-pa/loudspeakers/passive/jbl-control-1-professional-compact-speaker?sku=JBL-C1PRO-WHP&gclid=CjwKEAjwm7jKBRDE2_H_t8DVxzISJACwS9WbvyBYTQl5cGwQbBfz4_LzExg4l7JBnzHRe_6cH8TTjxoCAlLw_wcB

 

In white or black and includes the mouting bracket.

[sandall]

Every installer will have a different idea of what's best. My general rule is the fewest number of speakers that will cover the area, & that the sound should always appear to come from the person speaking - I'm still a fan of the old Philips/Bosch cardioid columns for speech, though there are plenty of alternatives, & if the church is small enough a pair of Control-1s may be fine. Some people like to put a small speaker on every column, but unless you use carefully-set delays & a multi-channel amp most of your congregation are going to get their sound from the nearest speaker, not from where the worship is taking place. If you want to also play music it might be worth considering a separate system for this.

 

The worst church sound I ever met was at a service in St Paul's Cathedral some years ago (I believe it now has yet another very expensive system), where all we could hear was disembodied whispering from somewhere behind us, totally unrelated to the mouths moving in the distance..

 

If your church is C of E you will indeed need what is called a Faculty from the Diocese. It is not unknown for the decision-maker to have his own ideas about what should be used & who should do the job. One of my early proposals was rejected because I spec'd Beyer mics. A word from the Vicar to his Dean, & a change to AKG, seemed to solve the problem.

[Stuart91]

Where exactly in England are you based? There might be someone local who could give some help or advice.

 

The size, style, and requirements of churches can vary enormously so it's hard to recommend something over a forum like this. The suggestions of Control 1s etc. are all fine, but there's no guarantee that they will be adequate or appropriate for your building. It sounds like the church have already made a poor decision with the existing speakers, which may look the part but are clearly not doing what they need to.

 

Most churches struggle to make good decisions on sound kit because nobody has the expertise to decide between different quotes. (I imagine there are similar problems with heating systems and roofing repairs). Either you find a competent, trustworthy installation firm, or use a consultant to help guide the decision making process. Buying something online that "looks the part" may just be the latest instalment of failure that will, in turn, be ripped out in a few years time.

 

As others have said, if you're CofE, then they have their own procedures to help with the process. Other denominations can have preferred or approved companies that they work with. It might be worth asking around other churches in your area to see if they have recommend for people to use (or to avoid!).

 

The definitive guide to all this was written almost 20yrs ago by a guy called Jim Brown, a very well respected consultant in the US. You can still download a copy here. Not all of it is applicable to a small local church, but the same pitfalls are there.

 

It sounds like you've been landed with the job, possibly because of your theatre experience. It might be worth sharing some of the info with the decision makers and try and convince them to get some proper advice. I doubt they'd ask you to specify a new heating system for the church, why should the audio system be any different?

[mnorman]

Thanks for your responses. I have been asked to look at how easy and the cost of improving the system is going to be. Having been part of the church for some years now, I am aware of the need of faculties that need to be received before any changes are made.

 

The church are beginning the process of asking a few different companies to come and give them some professional advice, but have also asked me my opinion, as I am the one that operates the system weekly.

It is normally just speech which is put through the system, although I am anticipating much more music to be amplified over the next few years, with an increased number of instruments.

 

The current system was put in several years ago, a long time before I was involved, and they were installed by a ‘company that specialises in church sound’, and I think they were completely ripped off by this company, who took lots of short cuts. As a church, we are trying to avoid this from happening again, and so we are trying to get an estimated figure of what we think it is going to cost, before we get lots of quotes, so we can also get an idea of whether this is something that can be done now, or whether we need to wait a few years to get the money together.

[timsabre]

So as a CofE church your first port of call should be the DAC sound advisor. Some of these are good and some less so, but it will be them who approves your faculty so you should work with them from the outset. If you go off on your own you could get into all sorts of political issues, or spend ages designing a system they won't let you install (I am a DAC advisor and I've seen it happen a lot)

 

If you could tell us where you are we could recommend some likely sound companies to get in touch with.

[Yorkie]

That old can of worms! I grew up in a church with a 100V column system that was becoming increasingly unsuitable for its needs. A change in leadership provided the impetus for a new system. I specified cabling and control (taking it forward from a system of long unbalanced lines with control in a cupboard at the front), but declined to specify a new speaker setup as whilst cable install is what I'm good at, I am no acoustician. They decided to go for the cabling and control, and plan ahead for the speakers with an eye to mic upgrades. Suffice to say, they soon rushed down a speaker solution at a price, the average speakers are probably ok, but they are badly installed, no doubt partly because of the financial pressure put on the sound company.

 

The speaker system is the most crucial part of an install in a church building - you could spend £200 or £20,000 on a mixer and they will sound very similar to most people. It is perfectly reasonable to have it specified and tuned by someone experienced in acoustics and yet have it supplied and fitted by people who specialise in discrete installation.

 

Telltale signs the company hasn't got a clue about installations (yes I have seen all this on one installation)

An active speaker is fitted to a wall. As the supplied IEC lead is only 2 metres long, they use one of these to join the mains cable half way up the wall http://www.wickes.co.uk/Wickes-Junction-Box-4-Terminal-20A-Brown/p/712937

They think that grey speaker cable is a specialist item (2 core 1.0mm)

Cables get cable tied to and run along heating pipes to save them having to clip to the wall

 

End of rant.

 

 

Our church is currently going through the process of specifying a complete building refit and the sound part of that will go well into 5 figures. The last I heard was that the architect wasn't bothered about the colour of the speakers, which to me sounds ludicrous...

[Simon Lewis]

Another electroacoustician and DAC advisor here...

 

When asked, I normally sit down with a church and complete a needs analysis, then explain that they will get completely different solutions offered to them depending on where they ask.

 

I can almost guarantee that one local firm will supply the same Apart speakers with InterM electronics and TOA radio no matter what the venue is, whilst another large hire, touring, sales and installation company will spec a system costing 5 to 8 times as much.

 

The issue of feeling that you didn't get value for money is not uncommon, and neither are some of the less than ideal practices that go on. It's best to closely specify what is needed including such things as the aesthetic impact (have the talk with your local DAC tech adviser) but make sure you include such things as cable types, colour, mounting methods and that tehse are acceptable to your church architect before submitting the Online Faculty form. Also, why not include some form of performance specification? It often gets the poorer installers scratching their heads when you say they must meet a defined level of speech intelligibility ;-)

[haymere]

Where is the church and what is the worship situation, as a professional sound engineer for 20 years , a born again christian and someone who has installed systems in churches all over the uk and a qualified electrician the situation needs to revolve around this. I am not suggesting 15inch boxes hanging on walls but the likes of D&B E3's with discrete bass boxes under pews, again K&F CA106's or E90 are similar but cheaper or a Martin Audio O line quasi line array again with bass support or from a new manufacturor from Germany called Voice Acoustic the LA stick 4 x 4.

Just some ideas but not cheap but can be mitigated by secondhand

Happy to help

 

Incidently the ability of the supplier to supply boxes in RAL colours or again to use the forgotten art of scumble can satisfy the church prettyness committee

[intyra]

I'd get a demo of the JBL Intellivox boxes – they are phenomenally good in terms of intelligibility, particularly in church-esque environments. That said, they're not particularly cheap...

[paulears]

I have been doing sound for a long time and have avoided churches for exactly these reasons. Rotten acoustics for speech, restrictions on cabling fixings and appearance. All sea single for old building but so few church systems not designed properly actually work! I rarely turn down jobs but just one fifteen years ago was enough. Dealing with the heitachy and rules that overturn the wishes of the local people drove me mad.

[Simon Lewis]

I'd get a demo of the JBL Intellivox boxes...

 

Much as I love Intellivox - and d&b and all the others mentioned, we are in danger of simply suggesting our favourite boxes without considering what the church needs and wants to afford (genre, coverage, level, aesthetic, etc.).

 

Superb but very expensive beam steering or digital directivity boxes may not be appropriate for the oddly shaped small parish church that wants to move into contemporary christian music.

"Two E3s on every column" is not viable as a design concept where the entire system has to cost less than a single 30D amp

I deeply respect Jim Brown and have quoted his "three systems" story many times, but (true) consultant led design is not the way we tend to usually operate in this country.

 

 

The truth is, we can take several approaches to system design, and achieve some good results, but they all need to start with the individual church, what its needs and resources are and what will fit.

I am aware of churches with 100V line systems that are entirely functional, appropriate and sound good, and others with a very expensive and extensive Martin Audio rig and Yamaha digital desk where they are asking to have it ripped out and start again

As Yorkie says....

http://www.freedomfeens.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/12/CanOfWorms.jpg

[haymere]

We at DBS solutions have had some very good experiences with these

https://www.thomann....achat_104_a.htm

And these

https://www.thomann....ef=search_prv_4

In fact we have put some in stock and are using them in London on Yank the musical as fills

[haymere]

1498349040[/url]' post='551995']

1498335424[/url]' post='551991']

I'd get a demo of the JBL Intellivox boxes...

 

Much as I love Intellivox - and d&b and all the others mentioned, we are in danger of simply suggesting our favourite boxes without considering what the church needs and wants to afford (genre, coverage, level, aesthetic, etc.).

 

Superb but very expensive beam steering or digital directivity boxes may not be appropriate for the oddly shaped small parish church that wants to move into contemporary christian music.

"Two E3s on every column" is not viable as a design concept where the entire system has to cost less than a single 30D amp

I deeply respect Jim Brown and have quoted his "three systems" story many times, but (true) consultant led design is not the way we tend to usually operate in this country.

 

 

The truth is, we can take several approaches to system design, and achieve some good results, but they all need to start with the individual church, what its needs and resources are and what will fit.

I am aware of churches with 100V line systems that are entirely functional, appropriate and sound good, and others with a very expensive and extensive Martin Audio rig and Yamaha digital desk where they are asking to have it ripped out and start again

As Yorkie says....

http://www.freedomfeens.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/12/CanOfWorms.jpg

 

We as intelligent sound engineers should be able to demonstrate the value of good sound. This is where the value of a non sales led operation is enormous. My box list is not so much a like list but a list of boxes I know will work in the situation. That is where churches are wise to find someone who is not brand orientated but knows the field and can come up with a bespoke design that will truly work in all senses and give good services to the expanding needs of the church for ten years minimum. Maybe that concept can be called a consultant. It is what I aspire to and will one day get there as a christian, my mission if you will. That is why hopefully next year I will be doing the Institute of Acoustics diploma course plus many courses with the Institute of Sound & Communications engineers and I am talking with my boss who is a member of ASD association of sound designers about my entry into that.