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load bearing certificates?


mrmattday93

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hi there, I run the stage crew society at my university and we are doing an outside gig end of june. we've just been contacted by one of the organisers asking for "load bearing certificates if necessary"

 

is anyone able to explain what these are and if we need to have them, if so where from?

 

the only thing I can think of is we have some truss to make a 3m deep by 3m wide by 2m high ( or any combination of them obviously) that was purchased in june last year, I think this is what they are asking about.

 

thanks in advance,

matt

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what does your "gig" involve doing?

 

we have a small outside stage ( is going to have a marquee roof of some sort supplied by the organisers as our stage is sandwiched in-between some barns) at a local festival that is starting up this year. we are providing the pa, lighting and av rig for this stage including the truss and steel deck.

 

 

 

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Matt, not to downplay your role or your knowledge but should a student really be responsible for external hires from a university?

 

There is an awful lot to providing a stage and all technical equipment that is second nature to those who have done it and can prove a nightmare for those who have not. Will your truss fit in the marquee, what is the power situation, are you adequately insured, are they adequately insured, have you got all the MI's and safety statements, do you have competent staff, and many more questions.

 

For the staging try these downloads and do similar for the trussing but be aware that my first questions would be what marquee dimensions including leg size/headroom and what power is provided and who is providing it.

 

A 6m wide stage will not fit in a 6m marquee, generally speaking. Neither will a six foot guitarist on a 400mm stage get within six foot of the marquee wall.

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1398273484[/url]' post='498329']

Matt, not to downplay your role or your knowledge but should a student really be responsible for external hires from a university?

 

There is an awful lot to providing a stage and all technical equipment that is second nature to those who have done it and can prove a nightmare for those who have not. Will your truss fit in the marquee, what is the power situation, are you adequately insured, are they adequately insured, have you got all the MI's and safety statements, do you have competent staff, and many more questions.

 

For the staging try these downloads and do similar for the trussing but be aware that my first questions would be what marquee dimensions including leg size/headroom and what power is provided and who is providing it.

 

A 6m wide stage will not fit in a 6m marquee, generally speaking. Neither will a six foot guitarist on a 400mm stage get within six foot of the marquee wall.

 

It may be the case that Bangor stage crew soc has separate legal personage to the university, and carry their own insurance etc. It's not clear from the OP.

Thread relevant: basically, what they mean is that you need to look at any structures which you are supplying which support equipment or people, make an accurate estimate of how much load they will be subjected to, and confirm that they are rated to take that load (based on manufacturer's spec sheet and/or beam calculations etc). This isn't conceptually hard, but you do need to do it thoroughly.

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thanks for the replies, we are affiliated with the students union and not the university and thus everything is covered through them. as for providing the stage we are perfectly able to having done numerous large scale events in house before as well as a different festival last year. I understand your points of having heights right and we are in constant liaison with the organisers wrt to stage plans and what they and we are providing, so we know dimensions which isn't a problem. We also consist of some members who have worked in the industry before, and everyone regardless of this has been trained by someone from a local company as well as other in uni staff that have knowledge.
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There is a wonderful naivety that comes with being young. Thinking that everything is OK because it's been done before and some of your people have 'worked in the industry' is an example of such naivety, as well as not realising how the judge in a court case will brush things off as meaningless.

 

If a musician gets over excited and walks off the front of the stage, you might think that the simple response is "well what an idiot", unfortunately UK legislation plus the never ending presence of "no win no fee" ambulance chasers means that you may still get a legal letter looking for money because they've had to take time off work due to having a twisted ankle and suffering from depression which will require, oooh maybe 30 grand should do it? (Of which at least 25 grand will go to said ambulance chasers). And going to court to defend yourself could cost you as much as they're suing you for. So you need to be sure that either the event is definitely insured to cover it, or that your own insurance is comprehensive enough to cover temporary structures erected by students outside of university events. And since insurance companies like to do anything possible to worm themselves out of paying up, you want to double check on that. Just because somebody 'has insurance', it doesn't mean they are covered for every eventuality. A while ago Paul Ears posted about somebody in his theatre claiming to have burned their leg on a smoke machine, some time prior. No evidence, no complaint at the time, no accident book... and they still got paid. That's what you're up against.

 

Kerry can seem a bit fun police if you don't know him (if you do, you'll know he's anything but the fun police) but it's unfortunately serious and depressing how liability and claim culture has hit the event industry.

 

 

 

In terms of load bearing certificates, there's no such thing per se, but it is probably a slight confusion of some things which do exist. Health and Safety advisers that like to walk around and tell you how to do your job frequently get their terminology wrong, unfortunately there do seem to be a shortage of health and safety advisers who actually have any knowledge at all of the subject area they're advising on. As has been suggested, round up everything you will use that will take a load, either suspended or on top. So, your stage decks, truss, rigging, whatever. A manufacturer's specification may be sufficient, but you may also require a record of thorough inspection, for instance rigging and truss used in lifting will require this between every 6 months and every year, by law. Just because something could once hold x-kg, it doesn't mean it can anymore...

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whilst I understand and accept what you are saying about liability and claim culture ( I have family who work as assessors for insurance claims so do find out a lot) I find it highly inappropriate you are using this all to explain naivety and link it to being young. not everyone that is young is naive, and not everyone that is naive is young. I know many a person who is just this and yet twice my age.

 

also this whole topic is about load bearing certificates hence the title and not whether we are competent enough to be doing anything in this industry. whilst my post may seem like this as I may be asking what could be a "basic thing to know" , I have seen many a similar post on here that has received the answers needed and not outing them from the industry or judging them based on their post or profile.

 

we are in constant liaison with the organisers

 

Maybe that should include asking them to clarify exactly what they're asking for.

 

would do although the person asking for this is separate to the main organisers and emails between him and myself keep having problems. so thought it would be easier to ask here.

 

edit: reply to seano

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There is a wonderful naivety that comes with being young. Thinking that everything is OK because it's been done before and some of your people have 'worked in the industry' is an example of such naivety, as well as not realising how the judge in a court case will brush things off as meaningless.

 

I know this isn't really on topic and not to start a argument its been done before many time's,

Just because someone 'young'. Uni students are 18-25+, does not mean that they do not have adequate experience,

5 years experience when someone is 22 is going too be the same as 5 year's when is 32.

 

Also you are judging someone by a few lines of text on the internet.

 

Sorry but if people keep 'shooting down' young people coming into the industry they will be no innovation and new idea's.

Everyone like someone who come in to learn and doesn't mind lifting all that steel deck.

I'm young but I have 5+ years experience I don't know it all, not nearly a fraction of some of my work friend know. If someone says they know it all there lie everything is always changing new thing come up,

that what make this job so interesting and a pleasure to work in this industry.

 

Came here to ask for help, if he didn't he could of just carry on and maybe do something wrong and hurt people.

Thanks

Madams.

 

 

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It's not so much about the technical knowledge and experience, it's more about the way in which you approach situations; and that is something that which can and does come with age and maturity. Hence my choice of the word 'naivety', as opposed to 'inexperience' or 'lack of knowledge'.
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The problem that leads to this sort of request is that the person who is tasked with contacting all the supliers to ask for paperwork is usually the office junior or secretary, who has little knowledge of what they are asking for.

The person wo knows what they want is to busy on other aspects that need their knowledge or on a sooner event

Therefore asking them to clarify often doesnt help ( its like asking an agent if this out of date rider for the wrong band is relevant.... Of course it is)

 

I have been asked for some crazy things by safety officers assistants, and one festival after 2 phone calls and 3 emails to query what they were asking, and being told if I didnt turn up with it I wouldnt be alowed on site. The safety officer was unsure what to do with the 2 draw filing cabinet I delivered to him on site containing individual pat test certificates for every item ( 2.5 reams, thanks mail merge) copies of driving licences and all qualifications of all staff I was bringing to site ( he actually just wanted ipaf and FLT tickets) etc. as he couldnt take it back to the office on a train.

 

 

 

"Load bearing certificates where necesary" screams of generic question sent to every supplier, the caterers wont have any as its not necesary, the big stage companies will have loads as its necesary.

From what youve described I would consider necesary...

Stage manafacturers instructions and load chart. To include loading info per sq ft and proof that it meets the required side load and the height below which bracing is unecesary ( steeldeck have this)

Load chart from your truss manafacturer showing max loads against spans

A drawing of your truss structure with the wieghts of your rig and self weight marked, and max weight on each span marked and most importantly max weight on each foot of the truss

If your truss sits on the stage then the foot weight should be less than the stage max load

If you are taking any motors, spansets, shacles etc ( it sounds like your not) then proof of regular inspection ( cert, spreadsheet or link to such on web)

Also if relevant , the same for the PA, what does it weigh, what does the thing holding it up say it can hold up

 

Back to the off topic topic, as someone who works with university crew a lot, I find them to grasp very quickly what is required of them, both technically and from a safety or responibility standpoint, they are often better trained, better motivated , more attention to detail, better insured and have as much expeience as a lot of profesionals

 

I expect all student crew who work for me to perform to a standard above what a lot of profesionals do because of

A) the industrys ongoing belief that student crew are naive untrained stupid and lazy ( as shown often in his forum)

2) the constant battle to prove that what they do is to a profesional stadard and safe

B) I'm old enough to remember when this industry was sloppy, unsafe , untrained and ignored relevant legislation and didnt know what h&s was

C) I still think a lot of profesionals in ourr industry are not as good as they should be on a lot of the above

D) university ( and schools I guess) crews who go on into the industry should be at the forefront of technology, safety, experience and what we do well

E) they learn so much more about themselves and life from this than they do from a degree

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I agree with a 99.9% of what you say Ian especially © though I caused a furore about insurance at one major SU.

 

The students were covered for any work anywhere run by the union, had PAYE and NI sorted but it took some time to insure them properly. By properly I mean working as sub-contractors in the commercial field, off-campus and in the public realm for which they had to set up a separate company. Unless Matt has examined the policy carefully taking special note of the exclusions then assuming anything is risky, he will need a copy anyway. My doubts are not about technical competence but about competent business management.

 

After all, that is what the bigger unions pay people like you to do, Ian. You know when you are being asked a silly question and do not need to ask BR what to do about it. Worth every penny of your ginormous salary, innit? ;)

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I've edited the start of this post as there was a quote that relates to a post and a response that have been removed. Hopefully, the sense has remained, but I apologise to Ian if anything got lost.

 

is truss a lifting accesory or lifting equipment, in most companies its probably not (I'm not saying should be )

you could say, when used as a spreader its part of the building (lets not get into mother grids here) when used under motors is it the load?

when used as a ground support box (not self climbing) there is no lifting

so loler is irelevant. yes there are other laws, but none actually "say" you must have certs for truss inspection by a third party 6monthly

also I've never ever been asked to produce an inspection cert (or certificate of conformity)for any of my truss (yes I do have them for most of it, and would produce them if requested , but wouldnt volunteer them.

 

and back in the real world I think I could confidently say that over 90% of the truss in the world has never seen a 6 monthly or annual certified inspection by a competant person. I would suspect that if they dont have motors and associated rigging then their truss is unlikely to have inspection certs

 

so I suggested what I think would keep 90% of safety officers happy that you have considered safety, done some maths, and have a good case it wont fall down

 

actually I've got a better more concise answer....

 

because my method statement says that all my kit is safe and suitable and to standard and they can have proof if they ask

 

the maths and a picture shows I know stuff too

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