ceecrb1 Posted April 21, 2014 Share Posted April 21, 2014 Hypothetical question (slightly related).Lets say I a freelancer, I am out on tour with a band or DJ..The console is mine (personal, not hired) as is visualiser software etc.All programming done by me under basic guidlines from the client (talent), but no time was spent with both client and I together doing any real programming. IF something were to "go wrong" mid tour and we all went our separate ways... Would that desk programing file remain trully mine or can they claim it as "theirs" and ask for it to be passed on to the next person to opp the show?I see it as completely mine and my work. There was no agreement as to any posibility of that outcome before starting the work etc, just a basic per-gig fee. Like I say.. only hypothetical it was just something myself and another tech were debating and neither of us knew what is entirely correct/true Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ImagineerTom Posted April 21, 2014 Share Posted April 21, 2014 All depends on what's written in the contract. In the absence of contract then a court would probably rule that you were a "creative for hire" and designed/programmed the lighting under the show's instruction/commission (presuming that it could be shown from the start this was intended to be multiple bookings with the same show - ie a "tour" and not just 20 completely un-conncected, re-designed every time, stand-alone gigs) and thus whilst you retain ownership of the copyright (so you could use the same concepts again in future) they would retain the rights to continue using the files/copyright for this show in line with the original intentions. It's something of a grey area (even with proper contracts) as to whether they could actually claim the specific desk files from you or simply some other form of notation of the designs. Various trade bodies have rules and procedures for this situation but in the absence of a contract specifically locking those rules to this job they are worthless. All the above goes out the window if they've failed to pay you in a timely manner. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dbuckley Posted April 21, 2014 Share Posted April 21, 2014 Not to mention that they may sue you for the costs of hiring a replacement and any costs associated with your leaving. Contract, contract, contract!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
itiba Posted April 21, 2014 Share Posted April 21, 2014 If things turned really sour I'd be tempted to give them a printout of the showfile in ASCII format but things would have to pretty bad. Even if I were in 'the right' by withholding the actual show file I wouldn't want to risk the damage to my reputation. As said above it comes down to the contract and carrying out due dil on all other parties before the project begins Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kerry davies Posted April 21, 2014 Share Posted April 21, 2014 In those specific circumstances, your hardware and your software used by you to deliver the contract as a sub-contractor, then I would start from the position that if they wanted it they would need to negotiate a design fee. If they did not want to pay then you have no liability to provide part of the package you were hired for as a separate entity. They hire me and my sledgehammer, if I leave I take the sledgehammer with me. The software is as much yours as is the desk it was created on, like my sledgehammer, unless they stipulate it is not at the outset. The hiring of replacements or asking for the software rather depends on the manner of the split up. Just walking off leaves you open to an overall breach of contract but not leaving your programme behind should not constitute it if you split amicably or the client breaches their contract. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Posted April 21, 2014 Share Posted April 21, 2014 They hire me and my sledgehammer, if I leave I take the sledgehammer with me. The software is as much yours as is the desk it was created on, like my sledgehammer, unless they stipulate it is not at the outset. But who owns the broken bricks? Or, more importantly, what would happens if you swapped those broken bricks for identical unbroken ones and left them those? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ceecrb1 Posted April 21, 2014 Author Share Posted April 21, 2014 Yeah it does seem to be the can of worms that I though it could be (if this were to ever arrise) and it does just seem to be situation dependent. I think the main thing I needed to confirm (which this thread has) is that from next season (and new clients) onwards I'll be trying to get some contracts signed or pre-arrangement of any outcomes if something were to arrise. To be honest I have never had an issue passing on a show file to hire companys or clients when they ask for it. Mostly as I as yet have not had any major issues with any clients and they are usually just one-off shows.Also in a strange way, I have the basic 1 universe capture licence.. with which I cant export any simulators etc.. so for all they ask, I dont have the option to pass that on to anybody without giving them my full licence key (not gonna happen..) I generally am only protective of my personal head files (with MY pre-set palettes done in warehouse for effects, colour correction etc) and some of my FXs. But that is mostly becasuse If I put the time in to visit local companies and create those for me so I can just patch a head and by just adding focus, positions and FXs.. I am ready do busk.If someone else wants to do that, they are all free to do so just as I did... Or the staff in the hire company can create them to go with their heads when hired.Its not so much "hoarding what is mine" as why should I feed the lazy... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ImagineerTom Posted April 21, 2014 Share Posted April 21, 2014 You need to be doing the contracts thing straight away, also from a legal point of view you have been legally obligated to have a "Terms of Business" document that you provide to all your customers before they contract you for a couple of years now. This document is where you'd be putting things like ownership definitions, break clauses, relevant trade body standards & rules. Aside from the fact legally you must already be doing this quite simply for your own protection you absolutely MUST get these systems in place now; no-one ever needs a contract until it's "too late" after something has gone very wrong and things have gotten very legal and messy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
itiba Posted April 21, 2014 Share Posted April 21, 2014 Would you be able to put up an example of such a document Tom? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boatman Posted April 21, 2014 Share Posted April 21, 2014 You need to be doing the contracts thing straight away, also from a legal point of view you have been legally obligated to have a "Terms of Business" document that you provide to all your customers before they contract you for a couple of years now. This document is where you'd be putting things like ownership definitions, break clauses, relevant trade body standards & rules. Aside from the fact legally you must already be doing this quite simply for your own protection you absolutely MUST get these systems in place now; no-one ever needs a contract until it's "too late" after something has gone very wrong and things have gotten very legal and messy. Although there's no indication in his profile, I believe the OP is actually based in Spain so that may not apply. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ImagineerTom Posted April 21, 2014 Share Posted April 21, 2014 Would you be able to put up an example of such a document Tom?Yes but no, you only have to google the words to find millions of examples and (just like risk assessments) the document NEEDS to be specific to your business sector, your business format and the way you do business. A Theatre LX designer who works thru his own limited company and who is a member of ALD & Bectu would have completely different T&C's to one who is the same but works thru an LLC & mainly does corporate gigs. Google people who are similar set-up to your business and read their's, compile the best bits in to your own T&C's, add in the extra specific terms that are unique to you then get a solicitor to tidy it all up for you.Boatman - it's based on a European rule so whilst the implementation might be different an equivalent rule will be in place in Spain either now or very shortly. More importantly though is that it is pure folly to be in business without T&C's / a contract in place precisely because of the confusing situation we are talking about here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ceecrb1 Posted April 21, 2014 Author Share Posted April 21, 2014 Although there's no indication in his profile, I believe the OP is actually based in Spain so that may not apply. Yep this is the case...Out here things are a little more (and too) relaxed... I am extremely rare among my colueages.. I am legally freelance and not working in black.. have PLI etc etc etc... But I do agree.. maybe its time to go and find out about getting some "terms of service" written up.. Just as you'd get from any hire company when you rent gear...... Maybe its time to chat to the lawyer about getting sometime written up that is legal and suitable for here. I will add that 99% of everything I does have contracts etc..Its just one specific possibility thats in the works that is pretty much a case of "come do our lights" and nothing more... I am trying to get more specifics from them but they are unwilling.. I THINK it is because they think that what has been "just for fun" for them for years is becomming "too much like work" as they are becomming more and more famous, yet more and more unwilling to take it as anything more than fun... (which isnt fair for all the people they are hiring.. eg me on lights, some video guys filming and some others runing pixel mapping). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Posted April 21, 2014 Share Posted April 21, 2014 Maybe its time to chat to the lawyer about getting sometime written up that is legal and suitable for here. The problem with 'going legal' is that, apart from the up-front cost, you will need deep pockets when it comes to enforcing it. Anyone breaking the agreed T&Cs only commits a Civil offence, and a Commercial one at that, so it's down to you to stump up the money for the lawyers and court costs. Lose, and you are likely to have to cover their costs as well as your own. As a self-employed individual, can you afford that? Surely it is better to accept that they, when they pay you to go out with the band, are getting the rights to your design as well as the use of your labour to op the show? So you factor that into your fee. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ceecrb1 Posted April 21, 2014 Author Share Posted April 21, 2014 To be honest if things were ever to go &%*$ up I probably would just hand over the showfile just to get away from the issue.. But I more thinking of a basic document thats suitable for most eventualities.. More a case of paying somone a little money to know the local issues and help me write something that enforces what is already standard operating practices etc.... Rather than create a custom binding document for me. It may just be enough to pay a small business lawyer an hour to tutor me on local laws and such the like for the usual things that pop up from time to time. (hired kit returned damaged, non payments etc etc) I am very lucky on the financial side as my partner has a masters degree in economics and is going for her doctorate, so taxes etc etc are all clear (for her). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Posted April 21, 2014 Share Posted April 21, 2014 ...help me write something that enforces what is already standard operating practices...But my point is that you can have all the written contracts in the world but you, as a small business, have no protection in criminal law if someone breaks it. A consumer has all sorts of protection but businesses don't. You are a business. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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